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The Nature of Godly Evidence and What Would it Take for you Not to Believe?
03-31-2010, 11:29 AM (This post was last modified: 03-31-2010 11:32 AM by Secular Hobbit.)
Post: #1
The Nature of Godly Evidence and What Would it Take for you Not to Believe?
Another question to my beautiful faithful friends:

The Nature of Godly Evidence
As a rational human being it's not possible for me to prove that God does not exist. I live by the adage that absence of evidence is evidence of absence, and since at this point in time, there has never been a sliver of evidence for the existence of God or a god, it is impossible for me to take the leap that the faithful clearly can and do. So there is my submission. Now, what would it take for me to change my mind? Well I certainly would not take someone's word for it that's for sure. For example, I am extremely certain that there exist other lifeforms on other planets, whether they be fully civilized species or single-celled organisms. Since we exist, we can logically infer that life does occur within the Universe. Why should our neighbourhood be so special? Now, there have been thousands upon thousands of UFO sightings, very exciting if you believe aliens exist, yet I believe that exactly 0% of those sightings can be relied upon. In fact I go one step further and actually believe that exactly 0% of those people have actually seen a UFO. I would suggest that people that report UFO sightings are either "susceptible" to interpreting certain events as sightings, are flat-out liars (for whatever reason), or genuinely believe they have seen a UFO but in reality have merely witnessed a natural event easily explainable. I feel it's this type of thing that goes on with people of faith, but that's for a different thread. For me to actually believe that other lifeforms exist (and keep in mind that beliefs are wholly powerful), I would, in-my-face, have to encounter an alien or an alien craft, or I would have to see a report on the news through a reputable broadcasting network (if there are any of those left). Perhaps this would be footage of some sort of spacecraft landing on the lawn of the White House out of which pops a little green man. Evidence could also be some kind of fossil discovered by a rover on some planet being explored by NASA; in other words, observable, empirical evidence. So to my first question: What kind of evidence would you expect to find if God did exist?

Not Believing
I've already established that I can not take the leap of the faithful. In my own mind I know as much as I can know, that no gods exist. This of course is meaningless since I can know as much as one can know that tables are in fact giraffe feet. This is the reason why objective, empirical evidence is so important; it eliminates the a priori reasoning of billions of different minds: E=MC2 because it has been proven, not because of some philosophical construct. My argument has always been that the burden of proof is on the believer since it is the believer whom makes the positive claim. My disbelief in a god is as strong as my disbelief in spaghetti monsters and invisible cookie clowns, yet I am not labeled an a-spaghetti monsterist or a-invisible cookie clownist, and nobody has ever challenged me to disprove either. In other words, since it is impossible to claim anything does not exist, for all intents and purposes, absence of evidence is evidence of absence. The faithful on the other hand, make claims about gods even without substantial, tangible, empirical evidence, which in my mind, makes this question really difficult to answer, but I hope there are some brave theists or deists out there willing to give it a shot: What would it take for you NOT to believe in your god(s)?

We would be 1,500 years ahead if it hadn't been for the church dragging science back by its coattails and burning our best minds at the stake
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03-31-2010, 11:42 AM
Post: #2
RE: The Nature of Godly Evidence and What Would it Take for you Not to Believe?
(03-31-2010 11:29 AM)Secular Hobbit Wrote:  Another question to my beautiful faithful friends:

The Nature of Godly Evidence
. For example, I am extremely certain that there exist other lifeforms on other planets, whether they be fully civilized species or single-celled organisms. Since we exist, we can logically infer that life does occur within the Universe. Why should our neighbourhood be so special? For me to actually believe that other lifeforms exist (and keep in mind that beliefs are wholly powerful), I would, in-my-face, have to encounter an alien or an alien craft, or I would have to see a report on the news through a reputable broadcasting network (if there are any of those left). So to my first question: What kind of evidence would you expect to find if God did exist?

Do you see any contradiction here?

????????????????
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03-31-2010, 12:08 PM
Post: #3
RE: The Nature of Godly Evidence and What Would it Take for you Not to Believe?
The fact that we are here is evidence enough for me. The fact that everything in Science seems to have been orchestrated is evidence for me. I can not believe that gases and molecules floating through space somehow exploded or whatever on its own, and by some crazy method made it so trees take in the CO2 that we exhale and we take in the oxygen that they "exhale". That in order for us produce offspring, we need 2 different complex beings. Of course, both human, but male and female of course are totally different, which means the universe would have had to not get lucky once, but 2x at the same time. and of course everything had to be perfect here for us to survive in the first place. I'll stop, but even those who don't believe in a higher being, must be blind to not see how it, at LEAST, seems orchestrated...

As for not believing, there isn't anything that could change my mind. If aliens came to earth with absolute proof, I'd think they were lying in order to control us or something.
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03-31-2010, 12:15 PM (This post was last modified: 03-31-2010 12:19 PM by Secular Hobbit.)
Post: #4
RE: The Nature of Godly Evidence and What Would it Take for you Not to Believe?
(03-31-2010 11:42 AM)kevlar Wrote:  
(03-31-2010 11:29 AM)Secular Hobbit Wrote:  Another question to my beautiful faithful friends:

The Nature of Godly Evidence
. For example, I am extremely certain that there exist other lifeforms on other planets, whether they be fully civilized species or single-celled organisms. Since we exist, we can logically infer that life does occur within the Universe. Why should our neighbourhood be so special? For me to actually believe that other lifeforms exist (and keep in mind that beliefs are wholly powerful), I would, in-my-face, have to encounter an alien or an alien craft, or I would have to see a report on the news through a reputable broadcasting network (if there are any of those left). So to my first question: What kind of evidence would you expect to find if God did exist?

Do you see any contradiction here?

Not in the slightest I'm afraid.
(03-31-2010 12:08 PM)Christian_Chris Wrote:  The fact that we are here is evidence enough for me. The fact that everything in Science seems to have been orchestrated is evidence for me. I can not believe that gases and molecules floating through space somehow exploded or whatever on its own, and by some crazy method made it so trees take in the CO2 that we exhale and we take in the oxygen that they "exhale". That in order for us produce offspring, we need 2 different complex beings. Of course, both human, but male and female of course are totally different, which means the universe would have had to not get lucky once, but 2x at the same time. and of course everything had to be perfect here for us to survive in the first place. I'll stop, but even those who don't believe in a higher being, must be blind to not see how it, at LEAST, seems orchestrated...

As for not believing, there isn't anything that could change my mind. If aliens came to earth with absolute proof, I'd think they were lying in order to control us or something.

Firstly Chris, you've given us a great insight into just how ignorant you are with regards to natural selection and evolution. Secondly. Wow! This really illustrates a huge problem with the religious mind:

As for not believing, there isn't anything that could change my mind...
How utterly sad, Chris. You are plain and simply ignorant. There is no reasoning with a mind such as yours.

We would be 1,500 years ahead if it hadn't been for the church dragging science back by its coattails and burning our best minds at the stake
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03-31-2010, 12:21 PM
Post: #5
RE: The Nature of Godly Evidence and What Would it Take for you Not to Believe?
(03-31-2010 12:15 PM)Secular Hobbit Wrote:  
(03-31-2010 11:42 AM)kevlar Wrote:  
(03-31-2010 11:29 AM)Secular Hobbit Wrote:  Another question to my beautiful faithful friends:

The Nature of Godly Evidence
. For example, I am extremely certain that there exist other lifeforms on other planets, whether they be fully civilized species or single-celled organisms. Since we exist, we can logically infer that life does occur within the Universe. Why should our neighbourhood be so special? For me to actually believe that other lifeforms exist (and keep in mind that beliefs are wholly powerful), I would, in-my-face, have to encounter an alien or an alien craft, or I would have to see a report on the news through a reputable broadcasting network (if there are any of those left). So to my first question: What kind of evidence would you expect to find if God did exist?

Do you see any contradiction here?

Not in the slightest I'm afraid.

But there is a contradiction. You say you don't believe in a higher being because you would have to 1 on 1 personally see it. Yet you believe there is life in space, even though there has been no evidence of such (especially since you dismiss ALL UFO sightings). And you say you would have to meet the alien 1 on 1... How can you not see the contradiction?
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03-31-2010, 12:31 PM
Post: #6
RE: The Nature of Godly Evidence and What Would it Take for you Not to Believe?
I see what you are getting at, nice try. The difference is this: I am not precluding the existence of alien lifeforms, I am simply using my powers of inference to posit the possibility of something based on existing evidence, i.e., life on at least one planet in the Universe. The fact that we are here means with certainty that life DOES occur in the Universe. Is it such a leap of faith to claim that it CAN -- not DOES -- exist elsewhere? Not for one minute do I claim to know aliens exist, yet you claim God does without the slightest jot of evidence. Not only this, Chris, you just said just a few moments ago you would not change your mind even if it was proven to you GOD DOES NOT EXIST. You make your Godly claims based on what? Because you're brainwashed. Like I said, nice typically intellectually dishonest try.

We would be 1,500 years ahead if it hadn't been for the church dragging science back by its coattails and burning our best minds at the stake
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03-31-2010, 12:49 PM
Post: #7
RE: The Nature of Godly Evidence and What Would it Take for you Not to Believe?
In order for me to not believe in God, I would have to be convinced that the universe is utterly absurd, life is completely meaningless, and nothing that most of us intuitively believe about ourselves corresponds in any way to reality as it is.

In other words, I would have to be insane.

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03-31-2010, 01:25 PM (This post was last modified: 03-31-2010 01:26 PM by Secular Hobbit.)
Post: #8
RE: The Nature of Godly Evidence and What Would it Take for you Not to Believe?
(03-31-2010 12:49 PM)Stereophonic Wrote:  In order for me to not believe in God, I would have to be convinced that the universe is utterly absurd, life is completely meaningless, and nothing that most of us intuitively believe about ourselves corresponds in any way to reality as it is.

In other words, I would have to be insane.

Fair enough, Stereo, and interesting. Don't you think the Universe IS absurd? I mean, it's utterly unfathomable that not only have planets and stars and black holes and quasars, etc. have formed, but LIFE TOO? To me that's absurd, however, even all of this does not necessitate divine causation. Is it possible? Sure, why not, but even you have to admit that it's not necessary.

I don't think life is meaningless but I also don't understand one way or the other why life being so would necessitate the divine. What's wrong with humans giving meaning to life? It's not such a bad thing that there is no meaning, count yourself lucky you have the tools to think about it. Care to elaborate on that?

Not believing in God = insanity? Bold statement coming from someone who suffers from delusions of sky fairies. Who is the insane one? Angel

We would be 1,500 years ahead if it hadn't been for the church dragging science back by its coattails and burning our best minds at the stake
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03-31-2010, 02:19 PM (This post was last modified: 03-31-2010 02:25 PM by Christian_Chris.)
Post: #9
RE: The Nature of Godly Evidence and What Would it Take for you Not to Believe?
(03-31-2010 12:15 PM)Secular Hobbit Wrote:  
(03-31-2010 11:42 AM)kevlar Wrote:  
(03-31-2010 11:29 AM)Secular Hobbit Wrote:  Another question to my beautiful faithful friends:

The Nature of Godly Evidence
. For example, I am extremely certain that there exist other lifeforms on other planets, whether they be fully civilized species or single-celled organisms. Since we exist, we can logically infer that life does occur within the Universe. Why should our neighbourhood be so special? For me to actually believe that other lifeforms exist (and keep in mind that beliefs are wholly powerful), I would, in-my-face, have to encounter an alien or an alien craft, or I would have to see a report on the news through a reputable broadcasting network (if there are any of those left). So to my first question: What kind of evidence would you expect to find if God did exist?

Do you see any contradiction here?

Not in the slightest I'm afraid.
(03-31-2010 12:08 PM)Christian_Chris Wrote:  The fact that we are here is evidence enough for me. The fact that everything in Science seems to have been orchestrated is evidence for me. I can not believe that gases and molecules floating through space somehow exploded or whatever on its own, and by some crazy method made it so trees take in the CO2 that we exhale and we take in the oxygen that they "exhale". That in order for us produce offspring, we need 2 different complex beings. Of course, both human, but male and female of course are totally different, which means the universe would have had to not get lucky once, but 2x at the same time. and of course everything had to be perfect here for us to survive in the first place. I'll stop, but even those who don't believe in a higher being, must be blind to not see how it, at LEAST, seems orchestrated...

As for not believing, there isn't anything that could change my mind. If aliens came to earth with absolute proof, I'd think they were lying in order to control us or something.

Firstly Chris, you've given us a great insight into just how ignorant you are with regards to natural selection and evolution. Secondly. Wow! This really illustrates a huge problem with the religious mind:

As for not believing, there isn't anything that could change my mind...
How utterly sad, Chris. You are plain and simply ignorant. There is no reasoning with a mind such as yours.

I'm not trying to reason with you. Are you here to try to reason with me and get me to throw away my beliefs? If that's the point of this forum, I'll be happy to find somewhere else to actually talk with people about their beliefs and learn instead of just name calling. Especially when everything you said can be turn right back on you, or there would be no conversation to be had. If YOU have 100% scientific proof that proves any religion wrong, then PLEASE share. Otherwise, remember you are just giving your OPINION based on the facts you have available. Which is exactly what I'm doing. How immature.
(03-31-2010 12:31 PM)Secular Hobbit Wrote:  I see what you are getting at, nice try. The difference is this: I am not precluding the existence of alien lifeforms, I am simply using my powers of inference to posit the possibility of something based on existing evidence, i.e., life on at least one planet in the Universe. The fact that we are here means with certainty that life DOES occur in the Universe. Is it such a leap of faith to claim that it CAN -- not DOES -- exist elsewhere? Not for one minute do I claim to know aliens exist, yet you claim God does without the slightest jot of evidence. Not only this, Chris, you just said just a few moments ago you would not change your mind even if it was proven to you GOD DOES NOT EXIST. You make your Godly claims based on what? Because you're brainwashed. Like I said, nice typically intellectually dishonest try.

I actually don't think you do understand what I am getting at. What I am getting at has nothing to do with whether or not there is life somewhere else, but the fact that you said you need hard evidence (IE: UFO on the White House lawn) in order to believe. But you also say you believe there is life in space. Did I miss the landing of the UFO in DC? Which is it? Can you believe in something without any hard evidence what-so-ever or cant you?
(03-31-2010 01:25 PM)Secular Hobbit Wrote:  
(03-31-2010 12:49 PM)Stereophonic Wrote:  In order for me to not believe in God, I would have to be convinced that the universe is utterly absurd, life is completely meaningless, and nothing that most of us intuitively believe about ourselves corresponds in any way to reality as it is.

In other words, I would have to be insane.

Fair enough, Stereo, and interesting. Don't you think the Universe IS absurd? I mean, it's utterly unfathomable that not only have planets and stars and black holes and quasars, etc. have formed, but LIFE TOO? To me that's absurd, however, even all of this does not necessitate divine causation. Is it possible? Sure, why not, but even you have to admit that it's not necessary.

I don't think life is meaningless but I also don't understand one way or the other why life being so would necessitate the divine. What's wrong with humans giving meaning to life? It's not such a bad thing that there is no meaning, count yourself lucky you have the tools to think about it. Care to elaborate on that?

Not believing in God = insanity? Bold statement coming from someone who suffers from delusions of sky fairies. Who is the insane one? Angel

I'm confused by your post here too. You say it's possible that a divine being had something to do with the universe in the first paragraph, then you say Stereo is insane for believing in sky fairies. Aren't you saying it's possible for there to be 'sky fairies'??

What exactly do you believe? Do you think there is NO WAY for there to be a supreme being or do you think it's a possibility but you believe not.
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03-31-2010, 02:46 PM
Post: #10
RE: The Nature of Godly Evidence and What Would it Take for you Not to Believe?
See post #6, Chris, i already explained myself.

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