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The all universe is simply a thought of someone??
04-14-2017, 05:23 PM
Post: #1
The all universe is simply a thought of someone??
Dear ALL,

We all debate about whether there is a god or not. If your religion is better than the one of your friend. But, maybe every religion is a different side of the same coin?

There is an ancient theory that argues that our universe is created by god's thought, I saw this in different new and old books, for instance in the book entitled: "The Elegant Consciousness".

If it is true, maybe spiritualism and materialism are the same thing? Angelic
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04-14-2017, 06:26 PM
Post: #2
RE: The all universe is simply a thought of someone??
(04-14-2017 05:23 PM)Jessi1 Wrote:  Dear ALL,

We all debate about whether there is a god or not. If your religion is better than the one of your friend. But, maybe every religion is a different side of the same coin?

There is an ancient theory that argues that our universe is created by god's thought, I saw this in different new and old books, for instance in the book entitled: "The Elegant Consciousness".

If it is true, maybe spiritualism and materialism are the same thing? Angelic

This resonates with several topics discussed around here lately.

There are the ideas of Philo of Alexandria. A 1st century Jewish philosopher who wanted to reconcile the Hebrew scriptures with Middle Platonic Greek philosophy.

Quote:God is continuously ordering matter by his thought. His thinking was not anterior to his creating and there never was a time when he did not create, the Ideas themselves having been with him from the beginning. For God's will is not posterior to him, but is always with him, for natural motions never give out. Thus ever thinking he creates, and furnishes to sensible things the principle of their existence, so that both should exist together: the ever-creating Divine Mind and the sense-perceptible things to which beginning of being is given (Prov. 1.7).

http://www.iep.utm.edu/philo/#H7

Then there are the ideas of Baruch Spinoza

Quote:God is the infinite, necessarily existing (that is, uncaused), unique substance of the universe. There is only one substance in the universe; it is God; and everything else that is, is in God.
[…]
God is now described not so much as the underlying substance of all things, but as the universal, immanent and sustaining cause of all that exists: “From the necessity of the divine nature there must follow infinitely many things in infinitely many modes, (i.e., everything that can fall under an infinite intellect)”.
[…]
Every material thing thus has its own particular idea—an eternal adequate idea—that expresses or represents it. Since that idea is just a mode of one of God’s attributes—Thought—it is in God, and the infinite series of ideas constitutes God’s mind or infinite intellect.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spinoza/#GodNatu

I do not know if this is the kind of thing you are talking about. Just referencing some recent discussions that touch on the topic.

And here I sit so patiently waiting to find out what price
You have to pay to get out of going through all these things twice
Dylan
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04-16-2017, 10:03 AM
Post: #3
RE: The all universe is simply a thought of someone??
Thank you very much Imprecise Interrupt Smile, yes, this is what I am thinking about. But, if this is true, then from this viewpoint spiritualism and materialism are the same thing? (similar to the argument in the mentioned book, https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/712977)
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04-16-2017, 01:37 PM
Post: #4
RE: The all universe is simply a thought of someone??
What is a thought?

One of the main aspects of thoughts is that they are representational, much like language is.

An idea of an apple represents an apple, much as the meaning of "apple" (and the word itself too) represents an actual apple.

To ask if the universe is just a thought is to ask a weird thing, since when I look at an apple proper, in itself, it doesn't look like it's representational of anything other than itself.

"To yield and give way to our passions is the lowest slavery, even as to rule over them is the only liberty." -Justin Martyr
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04-16-2017, 02:16 PM
Post: #5
RE: The all universe is simply a thought of someone??
(04-16-2017 10:03 AM)Jessi1 Wrote:  Thank you very much Imprecise Interrupt Smile, yes, this is what I am thinking about. But, if this is true, then from this viewpoint spiritualism and materialism are the same thing? (similar to the argument in the mentioned book, https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/712977 )

For Philo, the spiritual and the material are distinct. While a thought of God is a creative action, the created material entity is distinct from God. Furthermore, it is not God directly creating the material world. God is utterly perfect and never comes in contact with the imperfect. The Logos is the mediator who actually performs the creation. As a result, although the thoughts of God cause the material world to come into existence, the material world is not the thoughts themselves.

For Spinoza, there is no distinction between God and the material world. God is the only actual existent. Everything is God. But it does not seem correct to say that for Spinoza the spiritual and the material are the same thing. There does not seem to be a spiritual. Spinoza’s God is not a conscious entity. Neither does the human soul exist as a separate immortal thing.

Although not discussed here lately as Philo and Spinoza have been, George Berkeley presents yet another variation: the material world does not exist in and of itself. Only what is perceived exists. Only mental objects are real. Why does the world seem to exist without humans observing it? Because God continuously perceives everything and is the author of the laws that underlie the orderly nature of the world. This is not quite the same as the world being a thought in the mind of God but close. For one thing it allows human minds to have independent existence and will. In Spinoza, determinism is the rule. (Sort of. But that is another topic.)

I read the extract in the smashwords link. (BTW I fixed the link in the quote above. The close parenthesis was getting included in the url.) I was impressed that the author knew about Thales’ Theorem and more relevantly Gödel's Completeness Theorem (not to be confused with Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems). I have a number of quarrels with the author. But rather than dwell on those, I would like to hear the full blown idea itself and its derivation explained here. There are not clear from the extract. I do not intend to buy the entire book. For one thing the right alignment and its artifacts (like misplaced quote marks) are very annoying and an obstacle to reading.

And here I sit so patiently waiting to find out what price
You have to pay to get out of going through all these things twice
Dylan
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04-17-2017, 02:43 PM (This post was last modified: 04-17-2017 02:50 PM by Jessi1.)
Post: #6
RE: The all universe is simply a thought of someone??
(04-16-2017 02:16 PM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  
(04-16-2017 10:03 AM)Jessi1 Wrote:  Thank you very much Imprecise Interrupt Smile, yes, this is what I am thinking about. But, if this is true, then from this viewpoint spiritualism and materialism are the same thing? (similar to the argument in the mentioned book, https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/712977 )

For Philo, the spiritual and the material are distinct. While a thought of God is a creative action, the created material entity is distinct from God. Furthermore, it is not God directly creating the material world. God is utterly perfect and never comes in contact with the imperfect. The Logos is the mediator who actually performs the creation. As a result, although the thoughts of God cause the material world to come into existence, the material world is not the thoughts themselves.

For Spinoza, there is no distinction between God and the material world. God is the only actual existent. Everything is God. But it does not seem correct to say that for Spinoza the spiritual and the material are the same thing. There does not seem to be a spiritual. Spinoza’s God is not a conscious entity. Neither does the human soul exist as a separate immortal thing.

Although not discussed here lately as Philo and Spinoza have been, George Berkeley presents yet another variation: the material world does not exist in and of itself. Only what is perceived exists. Only mental objects are real. Why does the world seem to exist without humans observing it? Because God continuously perceives everything and is the author of the laws that underlie the orderly nature of the world. This is not quite the same as the world being a thought in the mind of God but close. For one thing it allows human minds to have independent existence and will. In Spinoza, determinism is the rule. (Sort of. But that is another topic.)

I read the extract in the smashwords link. (BTW I fixed the link in the quote above. The close parenthesis was getting included in the url.) I was impressed that the author knew about Thales’ Theorem and more relevantly Gödel's Completeness Theorem (not to be confused with Gödel's Incompleteness Theorems). I have a number of quarrels with the author. But rather than dwell on those, I would like to hear the full blown idea itself and its derivation explained here. There are not clear from the extract. I do not intend to buy the entire book. For one thing the right alignment and its artifacts (like misplaced quote marks) are very annoying and an obstacle to reading.


Thanks for the fixed link Shy. The book is free for downloading (I think that you should sign in, in the website which is also free of charge).

If you say that the created material entity is distinct from God, then there is something apart from god. I think that this statement go against the Christianity and Judaism... What do you think?

Furthermore, I think that the question what are the differences between mental objects and non-mental objects should have clear meaning...

(04-16-2017 01:37 PM)shiverleaf15 Wrote:  What is a thought?

One of the main aspects of thoughts is that they are representational, much like language is.

An idea of an apple represents an apple, much as the meaning of "apple" (and the word itself too) represents an actual apple.

To ask if the universe is just a thought is to ask a weird thing, since when I look at an apple proper, in itself, it doesn't look like it's representational of anything other than itself.

Hi shiverleaf15, I think that a universe as a thought means a non-materialistic universe, in which the actual apple is "actual" only from our (humans) perspective. If you and the apple are part of this thought, then you coexist with the materialism apple and then maybe you can not observe it in an objective sense...

In our dreams, our thoughts seems to be very materialism, right?
This is weird, but interesting thinking...
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04-17-2017, 02:53 PM (This post was last modified: 04-17-2017 02:57 PM by The_Squid.)
Post: #7
RE: The all universe is simply a thought of someone??
(04-14-2017 05:23 PM)Jessi1 Wrote:  There is an ancient theory that argues that our universe is created by god's thought,

How do you tell whether this is all a "god's thought" or a universe that started through natural means?


(04-16-2017 01:37 PM)shiverleaf15 Wrote:  To ask if the universe is just a thought is to ask a weird thing, since when I look at an apple proper, in itself, it doesn't look like it's representational of anything other than itself.

I don't get the concept either... when you think of a person (for example), does that person you imagined think thoughts for themselves? I don't think they do.... not as far as I can tell....

So if everything is just a thought, how is it that the representations (us) in that thought are thinking as well? It doesn't make a lot of sense.

Nor has any evidence of how we can tell that this is happening been provided... that would be a novel concept.... actual evidence.

----------------------
Does anyone know where the love of God goes
when the waves turn the minutes to hours?
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04-17-2017, 03:00 PM
Post: #8
RE: The all universe is simply a thought of someone??
(04-17-2017 02:53 PM)The_Squid Wrote:  
(04-14-2017 05:23 PM)Jessi1 Wrote:  There is an ancient theory that argues that our universe is created by god's thought,

How do you tell whether this is all a "god's thought" or a universe that started through natural means?

By looking at what would be implied by each possibility and how that fits with observable reality. The fact of existence itself and its orderly nature are interesting subjects for discussion.

In any case, the topic for discussion has been presented. If you have something to contribute, great! If not ...

And here I sit so patiently waiting to find out what price
You have to pay to get out of going through all these things twice
Dylan
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04-17-2017, 03:09 PM
Post: #9
RE: The all universe is simply a thought of someone??
(04-17-2017 03:00 PM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  
(04-17-2017 02:53 PM)The_Squid Wrote:  
(04-14-2017 05:23 PM)Jessi1 Wrote:  There is an ancient theory that argues that our universe is created by god's thought,

How do you tell whether this is all a "god's thought" or a universe that started through natural means?

By looking at what would be implied by each possibility and how that fits with observable reality. The fact of existence itself and its orderly nature are interesting subjects for discussion.

So where is the evidence for us being "a thought"?

If you make a claim, put up the evidence. "Because the universe seems orderly" is not evidence.

Quote:In any case, the topic for discussion has been presented. If you have something to contribute, great! If not ...

I will contribute whatever I wish... if my question is too hard to answer, ignore it and move on.

----------------------
Does anyone know where the love of God goes
when the waves turn the minutes to hours?
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04-17-2017, 03:33 PM
Post: #10
RE: The all universe is simply a thought of someone??
(04-17-2017 03:09 PM)The_Squid Wrote:  
(04-17-2017 03:00 PM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  
(04-17-2017 02:53 PM)The_Squid Wrote:  
(04-14-2017 05:23 PM)Jessi1 Wrote:  There is an ancient theory that argues that our universe is created by god's thought,

How do you tell whether this is all a "god's thought" or a universe that started through natural means?

By looking at what would be implied by each possibility and how that fits with observable reality. The fact of existence itself and its orderly nature are interesting subjects for discussion.

So where is the evidence for us being "a thought"?

If you make a claim, put up the evidence. "Because the universe seems orderly" is not evidence.

Quote:In any case, the topic for discussion has been presented. If you have something to contribute, great! If not ...

I will contribute whatever I wish... if my question is too hard to answer, ignore it and move on.

The topic is being discussed. Several possible meanings have been put forth. No need to provide evidence of anything until the subject matter has been better defined.

I know you demand that no one be allowed to discuss anything without your approval and insist on turning everything into an argument about that. Unless you provide meaningful input into the topic I am not responding to any your posts on this thread and I suggest to Jessi1 that he do the same.

And here I sit so patiently waiting to find out what price
You have to pay to get out of going through all these things twice
Dylan
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