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The end of usury!
05-07-2011, 03:46 AM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2011 03:48 AM by For the love of god.)
Post: #1
The end of usury!
(04-22-2011 12:27 PM)For the love of god Wrote:  
(04-21-2011 03:43 PM)isa_muhammad Wrote:  The banking system can never be put right while we see usury as fair game.
And do you define usury as any form of interest? Also I wonder if the buy by the bank and sell at a higher price with monthly payments mechanism used in islamic banking isn't a form of profit, and therefor a form of usury.

I am not saying the current wealth of the non-islamic countries compared to the islamic ones is created by the banking system. But a fair system of money lending and an increase of taxes for the very rich to me makes more sense for a fairer distribution of wealth. What do you think about this?
I do not recall seeing an answer to this question. Also I read that at a time in the Jewish faith usury was forbidden between Jews, but not between a Jew and a non Jew. In a popularity contest this would not be a good thing, I reckon. Not sure how this is in Islam.

If you think that the problem is that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, what would be the solution? From where I stand several Islamic countries suffer from bad policies and enforcement, combined with negative balancesheets, corruption and mediocre education. Saying to the West to hand over their money would be illogical. It is just not gonna happen.

Maybe the essential question is how we can battle unfair income distribution on a global scale. What would the vested powers gain from this? I would say their support is needed. I still haven't seen a definition of usury that is useful in this respect.

Osho: "Enlightenment means being fully conscious, aware. Ordinarily we are not conscious and not aware. We are doing things either out of habit or out of biological instinct".
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05-07-2011, 04:12 AM
Post: #2
RE: The end of usury!
It worked quite fine for the 1300~ years that it was implemented. The claim it can't work is just nonsense.

Quote:From where I stand several Islamic countries...

There are no Islamic countries anymore. The last Islamic state was officially abolished in 1924, and no successor state has been established in its place (as of yet). The colonialist concoctions that pollute the Muslim lands are not "Islamic countries" any more than France or Russia are Islamic countries merely for having decent Muslim populations.

Islam replaced monkishness by manliness. It gives hope to the slave, brotherhood to mankind..
(Isaac Taylor, Anglican Canon of York).
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05-07-2011, 04:30 AM
Post: #3
RE: The end of usury!
Maybe I should have said countries where more then 50% of the population is Muslim.
What exactly is my claim about what doesn't work?

Osho: "Enlightenment means being fully conscious, aware. Ordinarily we are not conscious and not aware. We are doing things either out of habit or out of biological instinct".
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05-07-2011, 05:48 AM
Post: #4
RE: The end of usury!
Quote:Maybe I should have said countries where more then 50% of the population is Muslim.

Right... which means it's irrelevant when speaking about the Islamic economic system, since none of them implement it. Also keep in mind many countries with > 50% Muslims are ruled by Christians (or people of other religions), so it really makes no sense to even speak about such countries in the context of Islamic economic laws.

Quote:What exactly is my claim about what doesn't work?

That's what I took from this statement:

Quote:If you think that the problem is that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, what would be the solution?

You ask what the solution is... the solution was implemented and worked for longer than any known system before or since.

Islam replaced monkishness by manliness. It gives hope to the slave, brotherhood to mankind..
(Isaac Taylor, Anglican Canon of York).
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05-07-2011, 06:00 AM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2011 06:02 AM by biomystic.)
Post: #5
RE: The end of usury!
Barring profit-making on money lending only insures handicapping Muslim communities that follow this ideology in a capitalist dominated world economy. New investment does not happen without potential rewards in a market economy. It's always been this way and it's always favored the rich over the poor which is why civilizations go through their periodic upheavals and demises, mostly over sharing the wealth, who gets what and how much. What is needed is a new economic system that socializes the basic necessities for individual and community well-being but allows free market speculation for the non-essential or luxury economy. History records the failure of most socialist countries to provide the necessary incentive for new industry to grow. The Scandinavian models are closer to the mark but as for the Muslim prohibition on usury applied across the board, it will only continue Muslim economic inferiority status which is hidden behind Western oil demand propping up vulnerable single product Muslim national economies.
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05-07-2011, 07:31 AM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2011 07:34 AM by Pacioli.)
Post: #6
RE: The end of usury!
(05-07-2011 05:48 AM)Abu Rashid Wrote:  
Quote:If you think that the problem is that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, what would be the solution?
You ask what the solution is... the solution was implemented and worked for longer than any known system before or since.
You favour local barter, without lending or investment?
(05-07-2011 06:00 AM)biomystic Wrote:  Barring profit-making on money lending only insures handicapping Muslim communities that follow this ideology in a capitalist dominated world economy. New investment does not happen without potential rewards in a market economy. It's always been this way and it's always favored the rich over the poor which is why civilizations go through their periodic upheavals and demises, mostly over sharing the wealth, who gets what and how much. What is needed is a new economic system that socializes the basic necessities for individual and community well-being but allows free market speculation for the non-essential or luxury economy. History records the failure of most socialist countries to provide the necessary incentive for new industry to grow. The Scandinavian models are closer to the mark but as for the Muslim prohibition on usury applied across the board, it will only continue Muslim economic inferiority status which is hidden behind Western oil demand propping up vulnerable single product Muslim national economies.
My highlights.

What is your definition of "basic necessities" vs "luxury goods", bio?

How would you classify salt?

What about pepper?
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05-07-2011, 09:09 AM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2011 09:09 AM by kevlar.)
Post: #7
RE: The end of usury!
Abu's most effective argument, or at least, the one he relies on most is:
NO TRUE SCOTSMAN.
WOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOO
up ya kilt

????????????????
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05-07-2011, 09:36 AM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2011 09:39 AM by isa_muhammad.)
Post: #8
RE: The end of usury!
(05-07-2011 03:46 AM)For the love of god Wrote:  And do you define usury as any form of interest?

Usury is defined as unreasonable increase.
This means lending money at a rate of interest, the hoarding of goods to increase their price and other such trickery..

(05-07-2011 03:46 AM)For the love of god Wrote:  Also I wonder if the buy by the bank and sell at a higher price with monthly payments mechanism used in islamic banking isn't a form of profit, and therefor a form of usury.

Well, it might appear like that to you, and that is probably because it's being operated in a global usurious world.
However, it's NOT the same .. the property is not owned by the borrower (with attached small print), but by the lender, and so holds the responsibity for the property. The lender effectively creates a buy/rental agreement with the client, and is responsible for the integrity of the property. Eventually, the property is transferred to the client on receipt of the whole price.
Effectively then, the responsibilty of the property is shared, and this is reflected in a tapering rental charge.

Look at the furore about mortagage insurance going on atm .. there's none of that, as the rent has to be paid whether making capital payments or not.
Rents should come down, if usury is controllled, as it's harder to get a loan, for example, so property prices would decrease. This means that the poor, who are currently in the middle of a landlord/benefit sqeeze, would be treated fairer .. it's always the poor that are oppressed and squezeed, whether by Conservative OR Labour ideology!
[ showing my UK nationality .. Democrat/Republican .. same thing Smile ]

(05-07-2011 03:46 AM)For the love of god Wrote:  I am not saying the current wealth of the non-islamic countries compared to the islamic ones is created by the banking system. But a fair system of money lending and an increase of taxes for the very rich to me makes more sense for a fairer distribution of wealth. What do you think about this?

Yes .. the wealthy should be taxed, but the problem with putting the burdon on high-income earners is that it disencourages enterprise.
In an ideal world, it would be land, gold, real estate, business etc. that needs to be taxed and redistributed.
ie. 2.5% zakat

(05-07-2011 03:46 AM)For the love of god Wrote:  ..I read that at a time in the Jewish faith usury was forbidden between Jews, but not between a Jew and a non Jew. In a popularity contest this would not be a good thing, I reckon. Not sure how this is in Islam.

Almighty God says in the Qur'an that the Jews claimed "We have no duty to the Gentiles" .. this not correct .. the truth is for the WHOLE of mankind and not just for a racial elite..
Of course, it can be argued that muslims often fall into this trap, and feel justified in lying to non-muslims about their financial affairs .. unless in a 'bloody war' it's not justified, in my understanding. Almighty God does not like those who work corruption.

(05-07-2011 03:46 AM)For the love of god Wrote:  If you think that the problem is that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, what would be the solution?

The control of usury .. simple! This isn't likely to happen, however, unless people turn towards God.

"No nation will change until the people change!"
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05-07-2011, 09:52 AM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2011 09:52 AM by kevlar.)
Post: #9
RE: The end of usury!
God could solve the problem with a blink, just make everyone equal, is that what you mean issy? Turn to god and everything will be fixed. No starvation just all happy.

????????????????
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05-07-2011, 04:26 PM
Post: #10
RE: The end of usury!
(05-07-2011 07:31 AM)Pacioli Wrote:  
(05-07-2011 05:48 AM)Abu Rashid Wrote:  
Quote:If you think that the problem is that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, what would be the solution?
You ask what the solution is... the solution was implemented and worked for longer than any known system before or since.
You favour local barter, without lending or investment?
(05-07-2011 06:00 AM)biomystic Wrote:  Barring profit-making on money lending only insures handicapping Muslim communities that follow this ideology in a capitalist dominated world economy. New investment does not happen without potential rewards in a market economy. It's always been this way and it's always favored the rich over the poor which is why civilizations go through their periodic upheavals and demises, mostly over sharing the wealth, who gets what and how much. What is needed is a new economic system that socializes the basic necessities for individual and community well-being but allows free market speculation for the non-essential or luxury economy. History records the failure of most socialist countries to provide the necessary incentive for new industry to grow. The Scandinavian models are closer to the mark but as for the Muslim prohibition on usury applied across the board, it will only continue Muslim economic inferiority status which is hidden behind Western oil demand propping up vulnerable single product Muslim national economies.
My highlights.

What is your definition of "basic necessities" vs "luxury goods", bio?

How would you classify salt?

What about pepper?

Condiments. Seasonings.

Here's the Biomystic analysis and solution to world economic woes. From my website:

Communitarian Capitalism

a Dual Economic System


10% of top exec salaries + 10% of stock market profits could easily pay for the the entire U.S. Social Security System with cradle to grave medical insurance coverage.

Since we know that the Capitalist economic system embraces and exalts liars, e.g., salesmen, lawyers and politicians, let's get rid of it and switch to a more honorable and of course fairer system: the Communitarian Capitalist system proposed here in outline form, is a model for such a better economic system: The basic idea behind Communitarian Capitalism as a Dual Economic System is the simple humanitarian one that every human being on earth can be adequately fed and sheltered and given a decent life if we, as a universal human community, agree to share our knowledge and access to basic natural resources and basic community supporting technologies.

Two-Tier Economic System

All who read and digest the historical record of human technological advancement understand that it is not because information does not exist for setting up community self- sufficiency systems but that free market economic systems discourage such cooperative innovations in order for a relatively few to benefit in monopoly ownerships of the means of production. But our aim here is to create a two-tier economic system: One where the basic support systems of human community life and well-being are cooperatively produced instead of capitalistically produced for monetary profit. This leaves room for a free-enterprise system for production and distribution of all the goods and services over and above the basic minimum level, e.g., one may be entitled to a basic wardrobe set of clothes but anything fancy would be up to the individual to acquire through the free-market economy in non-essential items. The guiding principle is not equal distribution of society's wealth but equitable distribution that allows for adjustments to actual economic realities and not a ridgid coercive template forced on people whether they like it or not.Pretty darn simple but convincing people to see the advantages of such a system takes complex explanations because of so much capitalist system supporting cultural conditioning in our society.

Jesus and the early Christians would know what I'm talking about and so do my tribal friends but for the U.S. citizen, they find it next to impossible to think they could do without their Fords, Sonys and Safeways even though Winco and our Co-ops are doing quite well. Habitat for Humanity returns the spirit of the homestead house and barnraising, pitching in to help your neighbor. It's only a start but so much time and money could be saved while reinforcing community bonds.

The Gift Economy of the Future

The ultimate economic system communitarian capitalism leads to will be a Gift Economy where life-long social security is a given and everyone is economically secure in their lives. In a Gift economy, things are exchanged as special gifts because the basics and even a lot of luxuries of life are easily obtained through advanced automation and robotics. With material want removed from the human condition, humanity can blossom in its new role as guardians and caretakers of all life on Earth and wherever we go in the Universe.
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