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The religion of the God
05-08-2017, 09:40 AM
Post: #131
RE: The religion of the God
Quote:
(05-05-2017 05:59 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  
(05-05-2017 05:45 AM)hpesc Wrote:  
(05-05-2017 05:23 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  
(05-05-2017 04:02 AM)hpesc Wrote:  As i said many times before i follow only the quran wich contains facts.

Peace

And, outside of your holy book, how do you prove these facts as necessarily true?

Peas.

Peace

Wich facts do you mean? I dont understand

Peace

Don't you remember when you mentioned the 'facts of the Qu'ran'. Now I can accept some of the historical facts, such as that your Mohammed lived, died & etc. But one doubts that these are the 'facts' you feel to proeslytize over... so where are the external proofs, not equally claimable by other religions, for the rest?

Mushy peas.

Peace

Only the quran of religious books is reliable/facts.

Peace


That wasn't answering the question. But then I am not surprised.

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05-08-2017, 09:48 AM (This post was last modified: 05-08-2017 10:00 AM by KAYSER.)
Post: #132
RE: The religion of the God
(05-08-2017 09:35 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  So remind us again what the penalty is for apostasy in Islam?

Nothing at all

(05-07-2017 10:31 AM)Alexa Wrote:  There's plenty of compulsion in religion, including Islam.

"You're going to hell if you don't believe!"

Sounds like compulsion to me. And brainwashing. Wonder how many people would believe if there was no fear and no reward. No afterlife promised.

We are not responsible for what God promissed. We are responsible of what God told us to do with people who don't accept Islam. And we are ordered to do nothing about them

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05-08-2017, 10:02 AM
Post: #133
RE: The religion of the God
The issue of apostasy in Islam has been debated from the start, with some scholars shrieking for death and others letting things stay cool.

As for myself, I ceased practicing some time ago and although I have not adopted another religion I would be considered by most to be an apostate; even so, I have not been subject to any ill will or repercussions from the local Islamic community or any individual within it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

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05-09-2017, 05:25 AM (This post was last modified: 05-09-2017 07:12 AM by FilmFlaneur.)
Post: #134
RE: The religion of the God
Quote:So remind us again what the penalty is for apostasy in Islam?


Nothing at all

Well, yes and no : it is true that the Quran does not come out and state explicitly that apostates should be killed. All of the neutral references I have examined take this position. However, there are a number of Quranic verses that pertain to apostasy and various Muslim scholars have found in them the justification to execute apostates. There are certainly plenty of Muslims, past and present, who exercise this justification EG this from Islam Q & A:

"The evidence that the apostate is to be executed is the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2794). What is meant by religion here is Islam (i.e., whoever changes from Islam to another religion). Or:

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allaah and that I am His Messenger, except in one of three cases: a soul for a soul (i.e., in the case of murder); a married man who commits adultery; and one who leaves his religion and splits form the jamaa’ah (main group of Muslims).” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6878; Muslim, 1676) ... In conclusion, the answer is that Allaah is the One Who revealed this religion and enjoined it. He is the One Who ruled that the one who enters it and then leaves it is to be executed" https://islamqa.info/en/20327 .

As well as this, and oddly in contrast to the Qur'an, some hadith do refer to severe punishments for apostasy :"A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle. (Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:89:271) etc.

Now one can argue that such a view is 'un-Islamic' or whatever, but it is clear that views either way are not unanimous or, at the very least, the teachings of your faith are not consistent either in theory or practice. You can easily check this by moving to a place like the Sudan to see what happens there to apostates, since Article 126.2 of the Penal Code of Sudan (1991) reads : `Whoever is guilty of apostasy is invited to repent over a period to be determined by the tribunal. If he persists in his apostasy and was not recently converted to Islam, he will be put to death"

The only reply to this would be presumably that Sudan is not an Islamic country, which would be a surprise to them, I am sure.

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05-09-2017, 07:03 AM
Post: #135
RE: The religion of the God
(05-09-2017 05:25 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  The only reply to this would be presumably that Sudan is not an Islamic country, which would be a surprise to them, I am sure.

Just when they thought they were on the right course with their laws based on the Sharia law Smile

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05-11-2017, 06:38 AM
Post: #136
RE: The religion of the God
(05-09-2017 07:03 AM)Herminator Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 05:25 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  The only reply to this would be presumably that Sudan is not an Islamic country, which would be a surprise to them, I am sure.

Just when they thought they were on the right course with their laws based on the Sharia law Smile

A parallel perhaps would be between those supposedly Christian countries who would put homosexual to death or deny the appointment of female clerics and those who do the opposite. You pays your devotions and takes your choice...

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05-11-2017, 10:00 AM
Post: #137
RE: The religion of the God
(05-11-2017 06:38 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  A parallel perhaps would be between those supposedly Christian countries who would put homosexual to death or deny the appointment of female clerics and those who do the opposite. You pays your devotions and takes your choice...

Man, things were a lot easier back in the good old days when you could just go to a priest and buy an indulgence for your sins. The Catholics are sitting on a gold mine with this! Badda bing and you're good to go.

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05-11-2017, 11:31 AM
Post: #138
RE: The religion of the God
(05-09-2017 05:25 AM)FilmFlaneur Wrote:  
Quote:So remind us again what the penalty is for apostasy in Islam?


Nothing at all

Well, yes and no : it is true that the Quran does not come out and state explicitly that apostates should be killed. All of the neutral references I have examined take this position. However, there are a number of Quranic verses that pertain to apostasy and various Muslim scholars have found in them the justification to execute apostates. There are certainly plenty of Muslims, past and present, who exercise this justification EG this from Islam Q & A:

"The evidence that the apostate is to be executed is the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2794). What is meant by religion here is Islam (i.e., whoever changes from Islam to another religion). Or:

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allaah and that I am His Messenger, except in one of three cases: a soul for a soul (i.e., in the case of murder); a married man who commits adultery; and one who leaves his religion and splits form the jamaa’ah (main group of Muslims).” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6878; Muslim, 1676) ... In conclusion, the answer is that Allaah is the One Who revealed this religion and enjoined it. He is the One Who ruled that the one who enters it and then leaves it is to be executed" https://islamqa.info/en/20327 .

As well as this, and oddly in contrast to the Qur'an, some hadith do refer to severe punishments for apostasy :"A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle. (Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:89:271) etc.

Now one can argue that such a view is 'un-Islamic' or whatever, but it is clear that views either way are not unanimous or, at the very least, the teachings of your faith are not consistent either in theory or practice. You can easily check this by moving to a place like the Sudan to see what happens there to apostates, since Article 126.2 of the Penal Code of Sudan (1991) reads : `Whoever is guilty of apostasy is invited to repent over a period to be determined by the tribunal. If he persists in his apostasy and was not recently converted to Islam, he will be put to death"

The only reply to this would be presumably that Sudan is not an Islamic country, which would be a surprise to them, I am sure.

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