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The serial killer and his religion
03-01-2010, 10:20 PM
Post: #1
The serial killer and his religion
Since biomystic has started some sort of attack on Judaism.
I've got a bone to pick with Anglicans.
How is it possible to follow a religion founded by a SERIAL KILLER ie King Henry VIII?

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03-01-2010, 10:50 PM
Post: #2
RE: The serial killer and his religion
(03-01-2010 10:20 PM)kevlar Wrote:  ...I've got a bone to pick with Anglicans...How is it possible to follow a religion founded by a SERIAL KILLER ie King Henry VIII?

Moses is generally considered the founder of Judaism. Moses killed many people. (King David also killed many people. And long before them, Abraham killed people.) Despite all this, the Jewish religion has continued.

Mohammad also killed and tortured people. Despite all this, the Islamic religion has continued and grown.

The Buddha permanently abandoned his wife and son in order to go on his quest for enlightenment. Despite this, Buddhism continues.

Hindus oppress the Dalits (Untouchables) in what may be the largest religious oppression of all human history, yet Hinduism continues.

If you're looking for a perfectly good founder of a religious community, Jesus is your only option.

And to answer your question about King Henry VIII--he founded a denomination, not a religion. Numerous followers of Moses have killed people. Numerous followers of Jesus have killed people (including even the Catholic Popes). Numerous followers of Mohammad have killed people. Numerous followers of the Hindu and Buddhist faiths have killed people. And finally, atheists killed more people during the 20th century alone than in all of the previous tweny centuries combined.

There are a lot of killers prior to Jesus; there are lots of killers after Jesus. Nevertheless, in the middle of all this killing, Jesus stands out from the crowd.

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03-01-2010, 11:22 PM
Post: #3
RE: The serial killer and his religion
Let's hear it for Jesus! The only one of the bunch who didn't kill anybody. Even Paul was a killer and unfortunately this former killer left a Christianity corrupted by his desire to have Christians be accepted by the Roman Empire. It was Paul with instructions like those in Romans 13:1-5 who left Christians vulnerable to the dictates of whatever pompous [censored] and killer ape sat on the throne or Oval Office sending Christians off as cannon fodder and goon squads to whatever war the emperor, Pope, king, Queen, president had started.

Pure Christianity, following only Jesus Christ and free of Paul's corruption is the only religion started by a man without taint of killing or doing major harm to others in his past or so says this conscientious objector to war who follows Jesus' teachings.
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03-02-2010, 02:13 AM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2010 02:14 AM by Venedi Sporoi.)
Post: #4
RE: The serial killer and his religion
(03-01-2010 10:50 PM)Stereophonic Wrote:  Moses is generally considered the founder of Judaism. Moses killed many people. (King David also killed many people. And long before them, Abraham killed people.) Despite all this, the Jewish religion has continued.

Mohammad also killed and tortured people. Despite all this, the Islamic religion has continued and grown.

The Buddha permanently abandoned his wife and son in order to go on his quest for enlightenment. Despite this, Buddhism continues.

Hindus oppress the Dalits (Untouchables) in what may be the largest religious oppression of all human history, yet Hinduism continues.

If you're looking for a perfectly good founder of a religious community, Jesus is your only option.

And to answer your question about King Henry VIII--he founded a denomination, not a religion. Numerous followers of Moses have killed people. Numerous followers of Jesus have killed people (including even the Catholic Popes). Numerous followers of Mohammad have killed people. Numerous followers of the Hindu and Buddhist faiths have killed people. And finally, atheists killed more people during the 20th century alone than in all of the previous tweny centuries combined.

There are a lot of killers prior to Jesus; there are lots of killers after Jesus. Nevertheless, in the middle of all this killing, Jesus stands out from the crowd.

What about Zoroaster? Pythagoras? Also, does Jesus really count, since he killed so many people as "God" rather than as a man? In fact, now that I think about it, how can you condemn Buddha leaving his family when Christ counseled his followers to do the same?

I might add that you talked about the followers, not the founder of Hinduism- of which there is none, so far as we know. You can always find followers who do bad things when there are millions of them. You only pointed out a common deplorable custom on the Indian subcontinent, one I've pointed out is observed even by non-Hindu's. What's more, there's plenty of evidence of a very different caste system in early Hinduism.

ManuSmriti X:65
— As the son of Shudra can attain the rank of a Brahman, the son of Brahman can attain rank of a Shudra. Even so with him who is born of a Vaishya or a Kshatriya

I'd say that gives a well-meaning Hindu more wiggle room than I had to distance myself from the more unsightly parts of Abrahamic faith back when I still tried.
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03-02-2010, 03:04 AM
Post: #5
RE: The serial killer and his religion
All of this and not a single spousalcide (if that is a word) listed. I may be wrong and will surely be corrected. I think I would disagree with the denomination argument, when you are asked which religion you belong to on different official forms, they haven't asked for your denomination. So RC, CE, JW, Presb are some of the religions given. So I think the Anglican Religion is just that.

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03-02-2010, 07:44 AM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2010 07:46 AM by Stereophonic.)
Post: #6
RE: The serial killer and his religion
(03-02-2010 02:13 AM)Venedi Sporoi Wrote:  ...What about Zoroaster? Pythagoras?...

What about Moon? What about Koresh? What about Joseph Smith?

I generally restrict my comments to the major world faiths: Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism. Judaism is considered a major world faith because of its influence on Christianity; the others because of their numbers. None of the lesser religions even comes close to these five in terms of number and influence.


(03-02-2010 02:13 AM)Venedi Sporoi Wrote:  ...does Jesus really count, since he killed so many people as "God" rather than as a man?...

God gives life to every creature; this gives God (and God alone) the legitimate power of life and death over every creature. But at least you recognize Jesus as God; none of the other founders are thought of as gods, so again, Jesus' uniqueness is affirmed even by his enemies.


(03-02-2010 02:13 AM)Venedi Sporoi Wrote:  ...how can you condemn Buddha leaving his family when Christ counseled his followers to do the same?...

Since you seem unskilled in literary devices (such as hyperbole) and legitimate methods of interpretation, here is some help for you:

“If you want to be my disciple, you must hate everyone else by comparison—your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:26, New Living Translation, emphasis added).

“Haven’t you read the Scriptures?” Jesus replied. “They record that from the beginning ‘God made them male and female.’ And he said, ‘This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.’ Since they are no longer two but one, let no one split apart what God has joined together” (Matthew 19:4-6, New Living Translation, emphasis added).


(03-02-2010 02:13 AM)Venedi Sporoi Wrote:  ...the founder of Hinduism- of which there is none, so far as we know...

We know there were various founders and tinkerers of the hodge-podge known as Hinduism; we just don't know exactly who they were. If you want to claim that ambiguity provides wiggle room for distancing yourself from distatesful matters, fine, but then why aren't you also doing everything you can to dismantle those same distasteful aspects of your religion that have been hurting so many people for so long? Ambiguity and apathy go hand in hand.
(03-02-2010 03:04 AM)kevlar Wrote:  ...I think the Anglican Religion is just that.

Anglicans consider themselves Christians. Catholics also consider Anglicans to be Christians, as do all of the major Protestant denominations.

If you want examples of Christian-related religions that are not Christian, think of Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Biomystic's gnosticism.

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03-02-2010, 08:13 AM
Post: #7
RE: The serial killer and his religion
(03-02-2010 07:44 AM)Stereophonic Wrote:  
(03-02-2010 02:13 AM)Venedi Sporoi Wrote:  ...What about Zoroaster? Pythagoras?...

What about Moon? What about Koresh? What about Joseph Smith?

I generally restrict my comments to the major world faiths: Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism. Judaism is considered a major world faith because of its influence on Christianity; the others because of their numbers. None of the lesser religions even comes close to these five in terms of number and influence.


(03-02-2010 02:13 AM)Venedi Sporoi Wrote:  ...does Jesus really count, since he killed so many people as "God" rather than as a man?...

God gives life to every creature; this gives God (and God alone) the legitimate power of life and death over every creature. But at least you recognize Jesus as God; none of the other founders are thought of as gods, so again, Jesus' uniqueness is affirmed even by his enemies.


(03-02-2010 02:13 AM)Venedi Sporoi Wrote:  ...how can you condemn Buddha leaving his family when Christ counseled his followers to do the same?...

Since you seem unskilled in literary devices (such as hyperbole) and legitimate methods of interpretation, here is some help for you:

“If you want to be my disciple, you must hate everyone else by comparison—your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:26, New Living Translation, emphasis added).

“Haven’t you read the Scriptures?” Jesus replied. “They record that from the beginning ‘God made them male and female.’ And he said, ‘This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.’ Since they are no longer two but one, let no one split apart what God has joined together” (Matthew 19:4-6, New Living Translation, emphasis added).


(03-02-2010 02:13 AM)Venedi Sporoi Wrote:  ...the founder of Hinduism- of which there is none, so far as we know...

We know there were various founders and tinkerers of the hodge-podge known as Hinduism; we just don't know exactly who they were. If you want to claim that ambiguity provides wiggle room for distancing yourself from distatesful matters, fine, but then why aren't you also doing everything you can to dismantle those same distasteful aspects of your religion that have been hurting so many people for so long? Ambiguity and apathy go hand in hand.
(03-02-2010 03:04 AM)kevlar Wrote:  ...I think the Anglican Religion is just that.

Anglicans consider themselves Christians. Catholics also consider Anglicans to be Christians, as do all of the major Protestant denominations.

If you want examples of Christian-related religions that are not Christian, think of Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Biomystic's gnosticism.

Wrong. You are suffering from a lack of knowledge of early Christianity in which Gnostic Christians were participating before Pauline Christianity got approval and sanctioning by the Roman Empire. Pauline Christianity never was the only Christian theology and fyi, Pauline Christianity is headed for its End Times as Paul's theology becomes more and more known to thinking Christians as Paul's revisioning of Jesus's teachings. Paul has no use for Jesus' teachings, never refers to them, may not even know them. For Paul, Jesus Christ is only good for vicarious sin atonement where his name is to be used as a magic word wand and get-out-of-hell card for believers not looking for anything deeper. Biomystical Christianity returns Christians to the spiritual roots of Christ's theology whereas those following Paul are lost in church squabbles and doctrinal differences that always accompany organized religions. Christians owe it to Paul for the hideous violent behavior of Christians towards non-Christians and fellow Christians recorded through the last 1700 years for it was Paul who told Christians they could lose their very souls to damnation if they didn't kow tow to their established (Roman) rulers. Jesus rebelled against authority while Paul reversed his teachings and told followers to obey their governing authorities or archons as we Gnostics called them.
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03-03-2010, 11:07 PM
Post: #8
RE: The serial killer and his religion
I dont think arguing that beliefs have crazies makes a good argument, as literally, nearly every belief has crazies and psychos.
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03-03-2010, 11:14 PM
Post: #9
RE: The serial killer and his religion
(03-03-2010 11:07 PM)Deukal Wrote:  I dont think arguing that beliefs have crazies makes a good argument, as literally, nearly every belief has crazies and psychos.

Some more than others though. If the tree is rotten the fruit will be too.

"And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." Mt.3:10
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03-04-2010, 02:26 AM
Post: #10
RE: The serial killer and his religion
My point was that a thinking person I could not entertain Anglicanism simply because of who founded it and why he created it. Other protestant religions were founded mostly on theoligical issues. Old Henry wanted to get into someone elses pants and was willing to kill his wives to do so. Not someone I could follow.
Not that I follow anyone, but that I find amazing.

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