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Theological discourse
01-25-2010, 07:56 PM (This post was last modified: 01-25-2010 07:57 PM by Stereophonic.)
Post: #1
Theological discourse
How about we start a thread for discussing the actual teachings of Islam and Christianity? Let's avoid the rancor of Bible-bashing, Qur'an-bashing, or Muhammad-bashing, and just stick to theological discourse based on the respective teachings of Christianity and Islam.

Can we start out by asking what Muslims believe regarding God's foreknowledge. Does Allah know all that happens beforehand? Does the Qur'an teach that people have free will? Is Allah ever surprised by what individual people do? Is the Qur'anic teaching clear on this matter? What are the Qur'anic verses that speak of these issues? Is there any Islamic consensus on these questions, or do Muslims believe differently according to their particular sect or private opinion?

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01-25-2010, 11:17 PM
Post: #2
RE: Theological discourse
(01-25-2010 07:56 PM)Stereophonic Wrote:  How about we start a thread for discussing the actual teachings of Islam and Christianity? Let's avoid the rancor of Bible-bashing, Qur'an-bashing, or Muhammad-bashing, and just stick to theological discourse based on the respective teachings of Christianity and Islam.

Can we start out by asking what Muslims believe regarding God's foreknowledge. Does Allah know all that happens beforehand? Does the Qur'an teach that people have free will? Is Allah ever surprised by what individual people do? Is the Qur'anic teaching clear on this matter? What are the Qur'anic verses that speak of these issues? Is there any Islamic consensus on these questions, or do Muslims believe differently according to their particular sect or private opinion?

This sounds like a very interesting idea. Smile Just exposition and explanation of what the beliefs are, but no argument against those beliefs. However, as Stereophonic alluded to, explanation of how different schools of thought may differ would be fine. The idea would be simply understanding the beliefs of others.

Anyone care to have a go at it? I have bolded some specific suggestions of Sterophonic above.
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01-26-2010, 06:53 AM
Post: #3
RE: Theological discourse
Maybe this can answer most of the questions, as the post is about belief, without argument and abuse.

Allah knows everything that will happen. The first thing that He created was the "pen" and He ordered the pen to write. The pen wrote until it had written everything that would happen. And then Allah began to create the universe. All of this was already known to Him before He created it. He does have absolute and total control at all times. There is nothing that happens except that He is in total control of it at all times.

..Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.[Noble Quran 9:15]

..Truly He! Only He, is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.
[Noble Quran 12:100]

And Allah only, has Free Will, He Wills whatever He likes and it will always happen as He wills. We have something called, "Free choice." The difference is that what Allah "Wills" always happens and what we choose may or may not happen. We are not being judged on the outcome of things, we are being judged on our choices. This means that at the core of everything will always be our intentions. Whatever we intended, is what we will have the reward for. Each person will be judged according to what Allah gave them to work with, how they used it and what they intended to do with it.

As regards the actual "Judgment Day" - Allah tells us that everything we are doing is being recorded and not a single tiny thing escapes from this record. Even an atom's weight of good will be seen on the Day of Judgment and even a single atom's weight of evil will be seen too.

On That Day (of judgment) mankind will proceed in scattered groups and they will be shown their deeds.
So whoever does good equal to the weight of an atom, shall see it.
And whoever does evil equal to the weight of an atom, shall see it. [Noble Quran 99:6-8]

The one who will bring the evidences against us will be ourselves. Our ears, tongue, eyes and all of our bodies will begin to testify against us in front of Allah on the Day of Judgment. None will be oppressed on that Day, none will be falsely accused.

He could have put everyone in their respective places from the very beginning, but the people would complain as to why they were thrown in Hell without being given a chance. This life is exactly that; a chance to prove to ourselves who we really are and what we would really do if we indeed had a free choice.

Allah Knows everything that will happen, but we don't. That is why the test is fair.
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01-26-2010, 09:31 AM
Post: #4
RE: Theological discourse
(01-26-2010 06:53 AM)TruthWon Wrote:  ...We are not being judged on the outcome of things, we are being judged on our choices. This means that at the core of everything will always be our intentions. Whatever we intended, is what we will have the reward for...

Where do our intentions come from? Has Allah already written with his pen what our intentions will be? Can Allah ever be surprised by any of our intentions?

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01-26-2010, 09:46 AM
Post: #5
RE: Theological discourse
(01-26-2010 09:31 AM)Stereophonic Wrote:  
(01-26-2010 06:53 AM)TruthWon Wrote:  ...We are not being judged on the outcome of things, we are being judged on our choices. This means that at the core of everything will always be our intentions. Whatever we intended, is what we will have the reward for...

Where do our intentions come from? Has Allah already written with his pen what our intentions will be? Can Allah ever be surprised by any of our intentions?

Our intentions come from our choice. Allah wont be surprised by our intention, as the choice is on us, either choose right or choose wrong.
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01-26-2010, 09:55 AM
Post: #6
RE: Theological discourse
(01-26-2010 09:46 AM)TruthWon Wrote:  ...Our intentions come from our choice. Allah wont be surprised by our intention, as the choice is on us, either choose right or choose wrong.

Does Allah know in advance precisely how we will choose in every situation? Are those choices already written with his pen, or does Allah wait to find out what our intentions will be?

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01-26-2010, 10:20 AM
Post: #7
RE: Theological discourse
(01-26-2010 09:55 AM)Stereophonic Wrote:  
(01-26-2010 09:46 AM)TruthWon Wrote:  ...Our intentions come from our choice. Allah wont be surprised by our intention, as the choice is on us, either choose right or choose wrong.

Does Allah know in advance precisely how we will choose in every situation? Are those choices already written with his pen, or does Allah wait to find out what our intentions will be?

No, the destination is writen already, but the choice is still ours, like a person's life is writen already, till when the person will live.
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01-26-2010, 10:42 AM (This post was last modified: 01-26-2010 12:17 PM by Stereophonic.)
Post: #8
RE: Theological discourse
(01-26-2010 10:20 AM)TruthWon Wrote:  ...the destination is writen already...

It sounds as if you are saying that Allah has decreed all of our choices and intentions and actions ahead of time. This must necessarily be the case since:

1) Our final destination (heaven or hell) is determined according to our choices and intentions

2) But our final destination (the result of the judgment in item #1, above) is decreed before the world was even created.

3) Thus, if #1 and #2 are true, then our choices and intentions must have been foreordained before the world was created.

Am I understanding you correctly? If not, please tell me where I am misunderstanding.

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01-26-2010, 12:50 PM
Post: #9
RE: Theological discourse
(01-26-2010 10:42 AM)Stereophonic Wrote:  
(01-26-2010 10:20 AM)TruthWon Wrote:  ...the destination is writen already...

It sounds as if you are saying that Allah has decreed all of our choices and intentions and actions ahead of time. This must necessarily be the case since:

1) Our final destination (heaven or hell) is determined according to our choices and intentions

2) But our final destination (the result of the judgment in item #1, above) is decreed before the world was even created.

3) Thus, if #1 and #2 are true, then our choices and intentions must have been foreordained before the world was created.

Am I understanding you correctly? If not, please tell me where I am misunderstanding.

A little bit, but stil you are confused a lot.

Allah has given each of us humans a certain level of free-will too, everything in life is definitely pre-destined, but the way to do it is left to the humans to choose...for example, if ur in some 3rd world country, and u have to go to US...u have two ways available to u...one is direct..the other might be indirect...means you will go legaly, or illegaly...similarly, humans are given a choice to either go to the destination via the good or the bad way
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01-26-2010, 01:15 PM
Post: #10
RE: Theological discourse
(01-26-2010 12:50 PM)TruthWon Wrote:  ...everything in life is definitely pre-destined, but the way to do it is left to the humans to choose...

So are you saying that if a person is destined to go to hell, that person has a certain measure of freedom with respect to the particular evil things he will freely choose to do?

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