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Three days, Third day etc.
07-18-2017, 12:46 PM
Post: #51
RE: Three days, Third day etc.
(07-18-2017 11:00 AM)Caesar Saladin Wrote:  Jesus as a Karaite- that is an interesting kettle of fish to ponder. He's Jewish, but at the same time he rejects- or at least skirts- the authority of the rabbinate/Talmud, which fits the basic Karaite model.

The obstacle to this would be, though, whether he considered himself to be the literal son of God/Messiah/etc. or if those 'titles' were bestowed upon him by others. If Jesus were just a man- a very mortal man- like any other, I'd say he was for most practical purposes a Karaite (or something akin to what we know as Karaite Judaism), regardless of what others viewed him as. But if Jesus billed himself as the literal son of God/Messiah/etc. I would lean more towards straight-up Messianic Judaism (or, again, something akin to that).

But I'm admittedly sailing into unfamiliar waters with this line of thinking. I'm not educated enough on it really offer much more than speculation based on my limited study of the Karaite tradition.

There is no such thing as "Messianic Judaism". They are Christian. You cannot be Jewish and Christian at the same time. Judaism forbids idolatry, which is what Christianity is. "Messianic Judaism" is an oxymoron.
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07-18-2017, 12:51 PM
Post: #52
RE: Three days, Third day etc.
(07-18-2017 12:46 PM)susanblange Wrote:  ...
There is no such thing as "Messianic Judaism". They are Christian. You cannot be Jewish and Christian at the same time. Judaism forbids idolatry, which is what Christianity is. "Messianic Judaism" is an oxymoron.

Mmm .. they are. The problem is the belief in "G-d the son" and Jesus being the saviour.
Jews don't generally believe in Jesus as the Messiah. Muslims, however do.

..so Muslims are the real "Messianic Jews" Smile

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: He leadeth me beside the still waters.
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07-18-2017, 01:55 PM
Post: #53
RE: Three days, Third day etc.
(07-18-2017 11:00 AM)Caesar Saladin Wrote:  Jesus as a Karaite- that is an interesting kettle of fish to ponder. He's Jewish, but at the same time he rejects- or at least skirts- the authority of the rabbinate/Talmud, which fits the basic Karaite model.

The obstacle to this would be, though, whether he considered himself to be the literal son of God/Messiah/etc. or if those 'titles' were bestowed upon him by others. If Jesus were just a man- a very mortal man- like any other, I'd say he was for most practical purposes a Karaite (or something akin to what we know as Karaite Judaism), regardless of what others viewed him as. But if Jesus billed himself as the literal son of God/Messiah/etc. I would lean more towards straight-up Messianic Judaism (or, again, something akin to that).

But I'm admittedly sailing into unfamiliar waters with this line of thinking. I'm not educated enough on it really offer much more than speculation based on my limited study of the Karaite tradition.

The idea that seems to make the most sense is that Jesus thought of himself as a prophet and a kind of messiah. At that time, there were various takes in the popular imagination on what a messiah would be like. One possibility is that Jesus thought of himself as the ‘messenger of the Lord’ in Malachi 3 who will return the people to righteousness in preparation for judgement by the Lord. The people having sinned in the eyes of the Lord is a frequent theme among the prophets. But Malachi is unique in having a non-traditional messiah-like figure – the messenger of the Lord – who is not a military figure as elsewhere but a bringer of righteousness, making the people worthy of the Lord’s presence. That Jesus specifically had Malachi in mind is suggested by Malachi’s criticism of divorce on religious grounds, which the gospels have Jesus also do.

Was Jesus part of the Benei Sedeq movement, formally or informally? This forerunner of what is now known as the Karaites was around at that time. It would seem to fit considering the arguments with Pharisees and teachers of the Law, and with the extensive use of scriptural quotes as the basis of righteousness. It would also shed new light on why the Pharisees would want him out of the picture, especially the rule-obsessive Shammai Pharisees who were predominant at that time. Jesus would not just be a troublesome individual but an energizer of anti-Pharisee sentiments in the general population.

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
- Albert Einstein
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Yesterday, 08:17 PM
Post: #54
RE: Three days, Third day etc.
(07-18-2017 12:46 PM)susanblange Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 11:00 AM)Caesar Saladin Wrote:  Jesus as a Karaite- that is an interesting kettle of fish to ponder. He's Jewish, but at the same time he rejects- or at least skirts- the authority of the rabbinate/Talmud, which fits the basic Karaite model.

The obstacle to this would be, though, whether he considered himself to be the literal son of God/Messiah/etc. or if those 'titles' were bestowed upon him by others. If Jesus were just a man- a very mortal man- like any other, I'd say he was for most practical purposes a Karaite (or something akin to what we know as Karaite Judaism), regardless of what others viewed him as. But if Jesus billed himself as the literal son of God/Messiah/etc. I would lean more towards straight-up Messianic Judaism (or, again, something akin to that).

But I'm admittedly sailing into unfamiliar waters with this line of thinking. I'm not educated enough on it really offer much more than speculation based on my limited study of the Karaite tradition.

There is no such thing as "Messianic Judaism". They are Christian. You cannot be Jewish and Christian at the same time. Judaism forbids idolatry, which is what Christianity is. "Messianic Judaism" is an oxymoron.

There Are Jewish people who Do acknowledge Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah and accept Him as their Savior.
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Yesterday, 08:37 PM (This post was last modified: Yesterday 08:42 PM by shiverleaf15.)
Post: #55
RE: Three days, Third day etc.
There's no way Jesus was a Karaite. Karaism did not exist then; the Sadduceeism of the time did not accept the Oral Torah but it also did not accept the Ketuvim or even Nevi'im as scripture, and it did not believe in life after death, and some think, not even in resurrection (based on the Sadducee's misunderstanding of a teaching of Antigonus of Sokho). Sadduceeism may have morphed into Karaism later. Jesus opposed himself to the Sadducees more than to the Pharisees, seeing as he accepted and taught the resurrection, and granted even greater canonicity to the Ketuvim than even some of the Pharisees of the time tended to do. Many have noted that some of his teachings align best with Hillel, as opposed to Shammai (the Shammai Pharisees were in power during this time), in particular the teaching that baptism was the entry for people (especially Gentiles) into Judaism rather than circumcision, and the teaching that the tassels (tzitzit) on the tallit katan should be three threads (rather than four) three-fingers long (rather than four-fingers long). Jesus references his opponents as enlarging their tassels on their garments. This suggests that he was opposed to the Shammai Pharisees but not as opposed to Hillel, which still makes Jesus more of a Pharisee than a Sadducee.

The difference between Jesus and the proper Pharisees (who became modern Rabbinical Judaism) lies in the fact that Jesus considered many (but not all) parts of their "Oral Torah" to be inauthentic. But there seems to be indication also that he granted other parts. Of course Jesus also claimed unique interpretations of scriptures and in addition to that to be a spokesperson for God with the infallibility of Moses or the prophets themselves, and taught new things on account of this. So there's that too. But that stuff aside he did not differ much from the Pharisees as opposed to the Sadducees. Therefore he was more like a Rabbinical Jew than a Karaite in some regards.

For those who don't want to accept Jesus as a prophet or messiah, you may consider trying to think him as a proto-Hasidic rebbe: his supposed closeness to God, his supposed righteousness, would permit him to issue forth authoritative knowledge on the Torah, etc. And it's already true that some Hasidic folk except the Messiah to come to be someone like their own rebbes: see the example of Chabad messianism.

Though I suppose the old Talmud tale where the rabbi in dissent gets God to do miracles to show he's right comes to mind. Turns out the other rabbis conclude by saying, God himself has no saying in the matters of Torah interpretation; majority rules. I guess that would be enough reason to dismiss Jesus?

"To yield and give way to our passions is the lowest slavery, even as to rule over them is the only liberty." -Justin Martyr
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Today, 06:58 AM
Post: #56
RE: Three days, Third day etc.
(Yesterday 08:17 PM)Sue D. Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 12:46 PM)susanblange Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 11:00 AM)Caesar Saladin Wrote:  Jesus as a Karaite- that is an interesting kettle of fish to ponder. He's Jewish, but at the same time he rejects- or at least skirts- the authority of the rabbinate/Talmud, which fits the basic Karaite model.

The obstacle to this would be, though, whether he considered himself to be the literal son of God/Messiah/etc. or if those 'titles' were bestowed upon him by others. If Jesus were just a man- a very mortal man- like any other, I'd say he was for most practical purposes a Karaite (or something akin to what we know as Karaite Judaism), regardless of what others viewed him as. But if Jesus billed himself as the literal son of God/Messiah/etc. I would lean more towards straight-up Messianic Judaism (or, again, something akin to that).

But I'm admittedly sailing into unfamiliar waters with this line of thinking. I'm not educated enough on it really offer much more than speculation based on my limited study of the Karaite tradition.

There is no such thing as "Messianic Judaism". They are Christian. You cannot be Jewish and Christian at the same time. Judaism forbids idolatry, which is what Christianity is. "Messianic Judaism" is an oxymoron.

There Are Jewish people who Do acknowledge Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah and accept Him as their Savior.

When I lived in New York City, I encountered Jews for Jesus representatives frequently in the subways. From their literature and some conversations, it seemed to me that they knew little to nothing about Judaism but were very knowledgeable about fundamentalist Christianity. I have grave doubts about them ever really having been Jews at all.

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
- Albert Einstein
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Today, 09:42 AM
Post: #57
RE: Three days, Third day etc.
(Today 06:58 AM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  
(Yesterday 08:17 PM)Sue D. Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 12:46 PM)susanblange Wrote:  
(07-18-2017 11:00 AM)Caesar Saladin Wrote:  Jesus as a Karaite- that is an interesting kettle of fish to ponder. He's Jewish, but at the same time he rejects- or at least skirts- the authority of the rabbinate/Talmud, which fits the basic Karaite model.

The obstacle to this would be, though, whether he considered himself to be the literal son of God/Messiah/etc. or if those 'titles' were bestowed upon him by others. If Jesus were just a man- a very mortal man- like any other, I'd say he was for most practical purposes a Karaite (or something akin to what we know as Karaite Judaism), regardless of what others viewed him as. But if Jesus billed himself as the literal son of God/Messiah/etc. I would lean more towards straight-up Messianic Judaism (or, again, something akin to that).

But I'm admittedly sailing into unfamiliar waters with this line of thinking. I'm not educated enough on it really offer much more than speculation based on my limited study of the Karaite tradition.

There is no such thing as "Messianic Judaism". They are Christian. You cannot be Jewish and Christian at the same time. Judaism forbids idolatry, which is what Christianity is. "Messianic Judaism" is an oxymoron.

There Are Jewish people who Do acknowledge Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah and accept Him as their Savior.

When I lived in New York City, I encountered Jews for Jesus representatives frequently in the subways. From their literature and some conversations, it seemed to me that they knew little to nothing about Judaism but were very knowledgeable about fundamentalist Christianity. I have grave doubts about them ever really having been Jews at all.



I just ''Googled" Jews for Jesus -- haven't really known that much about them. Turns out that it was started by a Jewish man who's wife was also Jewish, but came to personal belief in Jesus as Her promised Messiah. So her husband was researching in order to prove to her that her new belief system was wrong. In the process, he, too, became a believer. He went to a Bible college and has been reaching out to other Jewish people to reach them, also.

There's also a church we'd attended a number of years ago that had a representative for Jews For Jesus and anyone who felt led to reach out to Jewish people were welcome to do so.

As with anyone feeling led into mission work, it's about sharing the Gospel unto salvation -- understanding the culture of the people / having a burden for that 'people group'. Understanding their belief system -- sharing Christ with them. Ultimately their salvation and spiritual growth and discipling new believers.
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Today, 10:49 AM (This post was last modified: Today 10:52 AM by Caesar Saladin.)
Post: #58
RE: Three days, Third day etc.
(Yesterday 08:37 PM)shiverleaf15 Wrote:  There's no way Jesus was a Karaite. Karaism did not exist then; the Sadduceeism of the time etc.

No, no, I was not implying that Jesus was a Karaite in the present sense- I certainly agree the Karaite movement, by that name, was not in existence in Jesus' time- only that (to me) that particular form seems an appropriate term, if not absolutely correct.

~

Re: 'Jews for Jesus', 'Messianic Judaism', etc.

In my estimation it's all a thinly disguised evangelical movement to pull Jews into Christianity in all but name. It's just another aggressive missionary project, in my opinion.

When someone asks "What would Jesus do?" remind them that flipping tables and chasing people with a whip is entirely possible.
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Today, 11:39 AM
Post: #59
RE: Three days, Third day etc.
(Today 10:49 AM)Caesar Saladin Wrote:  
(Yesterday 08:37 PM)shiverleaf15 Wrote:  There's no way Jesus was a Karaite. Karaism did not exist then; the Sadduceeism of the time etc.

No, no, I was not implying that Jesus was a Karaite in the present sense- I certainly agree the Karaite movement, by that name, was not in existence in Jesus' time- only that (to me) that particular form seems an appropriate term, if not absolutely correct.

~

Re: 'Jews for Jesus', 'Messianic Judaism', etc.

In my estimation it's all a thinly disguised evangelical movement to pull Jews into Christianity in all but name. It's just another aggressive missionary project, in my opinion.

If a person is 'pulled into' a belief system -- chances are they aren't in it on a 'heart' level. Christianity is all about what Jesus Christ has already done for us on the cross. And our realizing our personal need for the salvation having been made possible and offered. And our willingness to accept it in our heart.

There are four groups of people , from the church I go to, going to various countries / areas to share the Gospel with 'who ever will listen'. This event is taking place this month. Short 'mission trips' -- they will be back after a week or two. Chances are that you'd consider these groups to be 'another aggressive missionary project' -- the people are being guided in discipleship leadership.
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