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Trilatristic Christianity
07-25-2017, 01:08 PM
Post: #1
Trilatristic Christianity
Trilatrism is the worship of three gods, but the belief that there other gods.

“The original one created Elohim(National Gods/Great Gods/Pantheon), with the heavens and with the land, and the land was without form, and the Void-Darkness was above the abyss. And Ruach(Spirit) [of] Elohim moved upon the face of the waters.” - Genesis 1:1-2

“When [El(God)] Elyon(Most High) divided an inheritance as the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, the bounds of the people were set according to the number of the (70) sons of El. And Yahweh's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.” - Deuteronomy 32:8-9

“Elohim stands as the assembly of El;
He judges among Elohim.
How long will you judge unjustly,
And show partiality to the wicked?
Defend the poor and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Deliver the poor and needy;
Free them from the hand of the wicked.
They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in ‘darkness’;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.
I said, ‘You are Elohim, and all of you are sons of Elyon(Most High).
But you shall die like Adam, and fall as but only princes.’
Arise, O Elohim, judge the earth;
For Ye shall inherit all nations.” - Psalm 82

“For Elohim know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened with knowing good and evil, ye shall become like the Elohim.” - Genesis 3:5

“Who is like unto thee, YHWH, among Elim? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?” - Exodus 15:11

“And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob with El Shaddai, and my name is YHWH, I did not make myself known to them.” - Exodus 6:3

“I am HaEl Beit'El, where thou anointed the pillar, and where thou made a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.” - Genesis 31:13


“And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of El Elyon.” - Genesis 14:18

“And she called the name of [her] Adon who spoke unto her, El Roi, for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?” - Genesis 16:13

“And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, HaAdon appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am El Shaddai; walk before me, and be thou perfect.” - Genesis 17:1

“And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of El HaOlam.” - Genesis 21:33

“Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: I, as thy Elohim exists, am HaEl Kanna(Cana), visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;” - Exodus 20:5

“For El Rachum is of thy Elohim; he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.” - Deuteronomy 4:31

“[For as] Tzur(Stone) his work is perfect for all his ways are judgment: El of Emunah is without iniquity, he is righteous and just.” - Deuteronomy 32:4

“There is none like unto HaEl of Yeshurun, who rideth upon the heaven in thy help, and in his excellency on the sky.” - Deuteronomy 33:26

“And Joshua said, Hereby ye shall know that HaEl Chai is among you, and that he will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Hivites, and the Perizzites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Jebusites.” - Joshua 3:10

“Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are Bnei HaEl Chai” - Hosea 1:10

“And when all the men of the tower of Shechem heard that, they entered into the stronghold of the house of HaEl Berith.” - Judges 9:46

“Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for HaEl De’ot exists, and by him actions are weighed.” - 1 Samuel 2:3
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07-25-2017, 10:09 PM
Post: #2
RE: Trilatristic Christianity
(07-25-2017 01:08 PM)Eloh Wrote:  Trilatrism is the worship of three gods, but the belief that there other gods.

“The original one created Elohim(National Gods/Great Gods/Pantheon), with the heavens and with the land, and the land was without form, and the Void-Darkness was above the abyss. And Ruach(Spirit) [of] Elohim moved upon the face of the waters.” - Genesis 1:1-2

“When [El(God)] Elyon(Most High) divided an inheritance as the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, the bounds of the people were set according to the number of the (70) sons of El. And Yahweh's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.” - Deuteronomy 32:8-9

“Elohim stands as the assembly of El;
He judges among Elohim.
How long will you judge unjustly,
And show partiality to the wicked?
Defend the poor and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Deliver the poor and needy;
Free them from the hand of the wicked.
They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in ‘darkness’;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.
I said, ‘You are Elohim, and all of you are sons of Elyon(Most High).
But you shall die like Adam, and fall as but only princes.’
Arise, O Elohim, judge the earth;
For Ye shall inherit all nations.” - Psalm 82

“For Elohim know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened with knowing good and evil, ye shall become like the Elohim.” - Genesis 3:5

“Who is like unto thee, YHWH, among Elim? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?” - Exodus 15:11

“And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob with El Shaddai, and my name is YHWH, I did not make myself known to them.” - Exodus 6:3

“I am HaEl Beit'El, where thou anointed the pillar, and where thou made a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.” - Genesis 31:13


“And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of El Elyon.” - Genesis 14:18

“And she called the name of [her] Adon who spoke unto her, El Roi, for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?” - Genesis 16:13

“And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, HaAdon appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am El Shaddai; walk before me, and be thou perfect.” - Genesis 17:1

“And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of El HaOlam.” - Genesis 21:33

“Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: I, as thy Elohim exists, am HaEl Kanna(Cana), visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;” - Exodus 20:5

“For El Rachum is of thy Elohim; he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.” - Deuteronomy 4:31

“[For as] Tzur(Stone) his work is perfect for all his ways are judgment: El of Emunah is without iniquity, he is righteous and just.” - Deuteronomy 32:4

“There is none like unto HaEl of Yeshurun, who rideth upon the heaven in thy help, and in his excellency on the sky.” - Deuteronomy 33:26

“And Joshua said, Hereby ye shall know that HaEl Chai is among you, and that he will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Hivites, and the Perizzites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Jebusites.” - Joshua 3:10

“Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are Bnei HaEl Chai” - Hosea 1:10

“And when all the men of the tower of Shechem heard that, they entered into the stronghold of the house of HaEl Berith.” - Judges 9:46

“Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for HaEl De’ot exists, and by him actions are weighed.” - 1 Samuel 2:3

Interesting, however, Christianity is not Trilastic. It is monotheistic. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit Is all the Same God.
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07-26-2017, 12:48 AM (This post was last modified: 07-26-2017 12:55 AM by Eloh.)
Post: #3
RE: Trilatristic Christianity
(07-25-2017 10:09 PM)clusium Wrote:  Interesting, however, Christianity is not Trilastic. It is monotheistic. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit Is all the Same God.
El HaAv, HaBen El, and Ruach HaKodesh can't be one God, but can be one Elohim.
Elohim is the Hebrew equivalent to saying divine family or Great/National Gods.
God the Father is Hebrew either El HaAv(God the Father) or Elohim HaAv(The Father of Great Gods), his name is El Elyon.
Jesus is called in Hebrew either HaBen El or HaBen Elohim. HaBen El can mean The Son of God or the Child God, while Ben HaElohim means Son of the Great Gods or Child of the Great Gods.
Ruach HaKodesh, a feminine word, meaning Spirit of the Holy or the Holy Spirit.
Ruach HaKodesh is the Lady(feminine form of Lord) named Wisdom in the Book of Proverbs and the Greek Book called the Wisdom of Solomon.
"In her, the spirit, is intelligent, holy, one, manifold, subtile, eloquent, active, undefiled, sure, sweet, loving that which is good, quick, which nothing hindereth, beneficent, gentle, kind, steadfast, assured, secure, having all power, overseeing all things, and containing all spirits, intelligible, pure, subtile. For Wisdom is more active than all active things: and reacheth everywhere by reason of her purity. For she is [the] spirit of the power of God, and a certain pure emanation of the glory of the almighty God: and therefore no defiled thing cometh into her. For she is the brightness of eternal light, and the unspotted mirror of God's majesty, and the image of his goodness. And being but one, she can do all things: and remaining in herself the same, she reneweth all things, and through nations conveyeth herself into holy souls, she maketh the friends of God and prophets. For God loveth none but him that dwelleth with Wisdom. For she is more beautiful than the sun, and above all the order of the stars: being compared with the light, she is found before it. For after this cometh night, but no evil can overcome Wisdom." - Wisdom 7:22-30
"But whereunto shall I esteem this generation to be like? It is like to children sitting in the market place. Who crying to their companions say: We have piped to you, and you have not danced: we have lamented, and you have not mourned. For John came neither eating nor drinking; and they say: He hath a devil. The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say: Behold a man that is a glutton and a wine drinker, a friend of publicans and sinners. And Wisdom is justified by HER children." -Matthew 11:16-19

So I guess your God is both male and female? Is not easier to say that you have a God and a Goddess and their divine son? Seeing as the word for God in the Old Testament was many times Elohim, wouldn't Trilatristic Christianity make sense?
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07-26-2017, 01:23 AM
Post: #4
RE: Trilatristic Christianity
Yes, Christianity ought to be seen the way you teach it Eloh. I have been making the same argument as you for a while now.

The problem is with how you say there are "other gods". In Christianity, there are only three who create or sustain the entire world: the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. In Christianity, there may be angels who play a part in sustaining the world or even played a part in creating it, but all under the direction of the three aforementioned. Then there are "unclean spirits" who, if they ever played a part in creation or sustaining, no longer do so, otherwise they never did, though they do have some degree of power over nature sometimes. In Christianity, we are forbidden from worshiping the angels, or the unclean spirits, and we are even forbidden from worshiping Yahweh Elohim under wrong understandings or wrong practices.

Thus we are forbidden from worshiping heterodox understandings of Yahweh Elohim, whether it be Islamic or Jewish or even erroneous versions of Christian, or (if it be so), whether it be that of other non-Abrahamic cultures. Maybe it is the case that Zeus, or Ahura Mazda, or other such cultural gods are but Yahweh as understood by other cultures, but we are forbidden from worshiping these. Likewise with heteropraxy (consider the golden calves of Aaron and Jeroboam; these were meant to be representations of Yahweh, not some other god, but Yahweh still forbid such worship).

You also make a mistake supposing that the Spirit must be female. This is a mistake that cultures who speak a non-gendered language make: they think that when a noun is gendered, it implies the gender of the referrent. This is false, as anyone who actually speaks a gendered language can tell you (like myself). In Spanish, various animals (sheep, turtles, frogs) are female-gendered, but our consciousness quite often still defaults to the actual animals being usually male. Inanimate objects like chairs are also female-gendered, but to us the actual chairs clearly lack gender. Your spirit, my spirit, and the spirit of everyone would be female-gendered in linguistic expression to a Hebrew. Obviously, this doesn't prove that all our spirits are female, nor that Hebrews believed they were. Therefore the Holy Spirit may be female, male, or genderless.

For a Christian, we have the following:

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you"

I'd be interested to know if the male pronouns are artifacts of the English translation or if they're original to the Greek.

"To yield and give way to our passions is the lowest slavery, even as to rule over them is the only liberty." -Justin Martyr
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07-26-2017, 01:56 AM (This post was last modified: 07-26-2017 02:00 AM by Eloh.)
Post: #5
RE: Trilatristic Christianity
(07-26-2017 01:23 AM)shiverleaf15 Wrote:  Yes, Christianity ought to be seen the way you teach it Eloh. I have been making the same argument as you for a while now.

The problem is with how you say there are "other gods". In Christianity, there are only three who create or sustain the entire world: the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. In Christianity, there may be angels who play a part in sustaining the world or even played a part in creating it, but all under the direction of the three aforementioned. Then there are "unclean spirits" who, if they ever played a part in creation or sustaining, no longer do so, otherwise they never did, though they do have some degree of power over nature sometimes. In Christianity, we are forbidden from worshiping the angels, or the unclean spirits, and we are even forbidden from worshiping Yahweh Elohim under wrong understandings or wrong practices.

Thus we are forbidden from worshiping heterodox understandings of Yahweh Elohim, whether it be Islamic or Jewish or even erroneous versions of Christian, or (if it be so), whether it be that of other non-Abrahamic cultures. Maybe it is the case that Zeus, or Ahura Mazda, or other such cultural gods are but Yahweh as understood by other cultures, but we are forbidden from worshiping these. Likewise with heteropraxy (consider the golden calves of Aaron and Jeroboam; these were meant to be representations of Yahweh, not some other god, but Yahweh still forbid such worship).

You also make a mistake supposing that the Spirit must be female. This is a mistake that cultures who speak a non-gendered language make: they think that when a noun is gendered, it implies the gender of the referrent. This is false, as anyone who actually speaks a gendered language can tell you (like myself). In Spanish, various animals (sheep, turtles, frogs) are female-gendered, but our consciousness quite often still defaults to the actual animals being usually male. Inanimate objects like chairs are also female-gendered, but to us the actual chairs clearly lack gender. Your spirit, my spirit, and the spirit of everyone would be female-gendered in linguistic expression to a Hebrew. Obviously, this doesn't prove that all our spirits are female, nor that Hebrews believed they were. Therefore the Holy Spirit may be female, male, or genderless.

For a Christian, we have the following:

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you"

I'd be interested to know if the male pronouns are artifacts of the English translation or if they're original to the Greek.
Also name Wisdom is feminine in Greek so her is right, but spirit is genderless, so according the Greek the Holy Spirit is a it.
I don't trust the Bible even 50% because of Luke 20:46 and Matthew 16:6. Also I am a Pagan who talks Jesus son of El and Lady Wisdon. Lady Wisdom always helps me if I ask her for help, but I rare do, I normally just like talking to her.
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07-26-2017, 06:12 AM
Post: #6
RE: Trilatristic Christianity
(07-26-2017 01:23 AM)shiverleaf15 Wrote:  For a Christian, we have the following:

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you"

I'd be interested to know if the male pronouns are artifacts of the English translation or if they're original to the Greek.

Gender in Greek nouns does not necessarily give any indication of the gender of the referent. It is only an indicator of how the noun is declined according to case. The words for Comforter and Spirit happen to be masculine. In ancient Greek, a wall is neuter but a floor is feminine. The English pronouns used are no help because in Greek the pronouns are typically implied in the verb form and do not indicate gender.

Concerning Wisdom, consider what Philo of Alexandria said.

Quote:Having identified the Logos with Wisdom, Philo runs into a grammatical problem: in the Greek language "wisdom" (sophia) is feminine and "word" (logos) is masculine; moreover, Philo saw Wisdom's function as masculine. So he explains that Wisdom's name is feminine, but her nature is masculine
http://www.iep.utm.edu/philo/

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07-26-2017, 08:22 AM (This post was last modified: 07-26-2017 11:18 AM by shiverleaf15.)
Post: #7
RE: Trilatristic Christianity
Hm, I thought pneuma was feminine in Greek for some reason. Well, thanks for that.

And yes not only Philo thought this. Early Christians (like Justin Martyr) understood Wisdom (from Proverbs for example) to have been Jesus, and therefore, Logos. They probably were influenced by Philo but from the Christian view it's also possible to think Philo was actually right and vindicated by Jesus himself or the apostles through God's confirmation thereof.

"To yield and give way to our passions is the lowest slavery, even as to rule over them is the only liberty." -Justin Martyr
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07-26-2017, 09:51 AM
Post: #8
RE: Trilatristic Christianity
(07-26-2017 08:22 AM)shiverleaf15 Wrote:  Hm, I thought pneuma was feminine in Greek for some reason. Well, thanks for that.

And yes not only Philo thoughts this. Early Christians (like Justin Martyr) understood Wisdom (from Proverbs for example) to have been Jesus, and therefore, Logos. They probably were influenced by Philo but from the Christian view it's also possible to think Philo was actually right and vindicated by Jesus himself or the apostles through God's confirmation thereof.

The 'a' (α in Greek) ending would indicate the feminine gender in Latin. But as in Greek, noun gender does not necessarily correlate to 'real' gender'. (Are we allowed to talk about real gender anymore or is that micro-aggression? It's a joke, OK! Rolleyes )

From my viewpoint, Paul imported Philo into Christianity, turning the Son of God messianic connection into a quasi-divine claim. In this way, he turned the catastrophic execution of a popular ‘messiah’ into a kind of victory rather than a defeat. But that is perhaps going too far astray.

And here I sit so patiently waiting to find out what price
You have to pay to get out of going through all these things twice
Dylan
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07-26-2017, 11:25 AM (This post was last modified: 07-26-2017 11:27 AM by shiverleaf15.)
Post: #9
RE: Trilatristic Christianity
Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:The 'a' (α in Greek) ending would indicate the feminine gender in Latin. But as in Greek, noun gender does not necessarily correlate to 'real' gender'.

Is pneuma a female-gendered noun in Greek then? I understand well that noun gender does not correspond to "real" gender, as I noted to Eloh in my post.

In Spanish for example, "spirit" is always a male noun, whereas "comforter" can be male (comfortador) or female (comfortadora), as many words can be, in Spanish and other languages.

Is Greek "comforter" a word like spirit, always male, or a word like Spanish comfortador/comfortadora which can appear in male and female variants? I presume the Greek word used is the male one in the John passage but I was wondering if it's like pneuma, always gendered one way only (may as well ask though: is pneuma always female gendered then?)

I know asking about the gender of the Holy Ghost wouldn't matter to most Christians since God himself is genderless to them but I want to know if it's even possible to say it's female, based on how the "comforter" seems to be male and identified with the Spirit (by Christians). If the noun is one that must always be male, with no female variant, then we cannot say the case is settled. If, however, the noun is one that can be either, then John (or Jesus) picking the male version strikes me as theologically significant. Much as the NT doesn't call the Father "Mother" or the Son "Daughter" when it could have.

"To yield and give way to our passions is the lowest slavery, even as to rule over them is the only liberty." -Justin Martyr
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07-26-2017, 12:22 PM (This post was last modified: 07-26-2017 12:23 PM by Imprecise Interrupt.)
Post: #10
RE: Trilatristic Christianity
(07-26-2017 11:25 AM)shiverleaf15 Wrote:  
Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:The 'a' (α in Greek) ending would indicate the feminine gender in Latin. But as in Greek, noun gender does not necessarily correlate to 'real' gender'.

Is pneuma a female-gendered noun in Greek then? I understand well that noun gender does not correspond to "real" gender, as I noted to Eloh in my post.

In Spanish for example, "spirit" is always a male noun, whereas "comforter" can be male (comfortador) or female (comfortadora), as many words can be, in Spanish and other languages.

Is Greek "comforter" a word like spirit, always male, or a word like Spanish comfortador/comfortadora which can appear in male and female variants? I presume the Greek word used is the male one in the John passage but I was wondering if it's like pneuma, always gendered one way only (may as well ask though: is pneuma always female gendered then?)

I know asking about the gender of the Holy Ghost wouldn't matter to most Christians since God himself is genderless to them but I want to know if it's even possible to say it's female, based on how the "comforter" seems to be male and identified with the Spirit (by Christians). If the noun is one that must always be male, with no female variant, then we cannot say the case is settled. If, however, the noun is one that can be either, then John (or Jesus) picking the male version strikes me as theologically significant. Much as the NT doesn't call the Father "Mother" or the Son "Daughter" when it could have.

Pneuma (spirit) and paraklétos (comforter, advocate) are always masculine. Nouns in Greek have a fixed gender and do not have multiple gender forms. Since the language uses a declension system, where the word form varies with the case, with multiple declensions, plus adjectives and articles follow the form of the nouns, also having masculine and feminine and neuter forms would probably lead to insanity. Tongue

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