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Was Jesus Sent to be Crucified?
05-16-2009, 09:55 AM
Post: #1
Was Jesus Sent to be Crucified?
One of the fundamental beliefs of Christianity is that Jesus had died and allowed for the shedding of his blood for the sake of granting forgiveness to people. In other words Jesus had died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. Let us investigate this topic from the Bible, and find out whether Jesus was sent to be crucified or that he was crucified:
http://www.islamway.com/newenglish/binde...icle&id=39
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05-22-2009, 04:12 PM
Post: #2
RE: Was Jesus Sent to be Crucified?
Yes, Jesus was a real man. There is evidence he lived and died, but never born, which puts the christian Christmas out of place.
Whether Jesus did those miracles or not, has not been proven. I agree with sesame that he died, but there is no great evidence of him doing it for the forgiveness of our sins. You may say the bible, but good evidence should exist from a Roman point of view of Jesus.
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05-28-2009, 10:32 AM
Post: #3
RE: Was Jesus Sent to be Crucified?
(05-16-2009 09:55 AM)sesame Wrote:  ...Jesus had died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. Let us investigate this topic from the Bible, and find out whether Jesus was sent to be crucified or that he was crucified...

All of the historical evidence we have points to the fact that Jesus was indeed crucified on a Roman cross.

Whether or not Jesus came to earth for the express purpose of taking upon himself the consequences of human sin--well, certainly Jesus believed that he had come to earth for that purpose, and so the question really becomes a matter of whether or not we find Jesus to be credible.

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/ --- http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
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05-28-2009, 10:52 AM
Post: #4
RE: Was Jesus Sent to be Crucified?
All of the historical evidence you have? By that I suppose you mean the Bible, and the one historian who mentions not that Jesus was crucified, but that he existed at all?
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05-28-2009, 11:28 AM
Post: #5
RE: Was Jesus Sent to be Crucified?
(05-28-2009 10:52 AM)GTseng3 Wrote:  All of the historical evidence you have? By that I suppose you mean the Bible, and the one historian who mentions not that Jesus was crucified, but that he existed at all?

Your information seems a bit truncated. Here are some additional sources (click this link).

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/ --- http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
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06-02-2009, 12:58 PM
Post: #6
RE: Was Jesus Sent to be Crucified?
Of all these sources, only Tacitus and Josephus were actually referring to the man, Jesus. The rest were referring to Christians who worshiped Jesus, and say nothing of the man himself.
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06-02-2009, 01:31 PM
Post: #7
RE: Was Jesus Sent to be Crucified?
(06-02-2009 12:58 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  Of all these sources, only Tacitus and Josephus were actually referring to the man, Jesus. The rest were referring to Christians who worshiped Jesus, and say nothing of the man himself.

You're nothing if not consistently in error:

Quote:...Nero fastened the guilt...on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of...Pontius Pilatus... (Tacitus)

Quote:...he...wrought surprising feats....He was the Christ. When Pilate...condemned him to be crucified, those who had...come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared...restored to life... (Josephus)

Quote:...On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged... (Babylonian Talmud)

Quote:The Christians...worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account... (Lucian)

How do you expect to be taken seriously when you keep getting even simple things wrong, and then refuse to acknowledge your errors?

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/ --- http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
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06-02-2009, 02:25 PM
Post: #8
RE: Was Jesus Sent to be Crucified?
I would argue that the Babylonian Talmud and Lucian were referring only to what the Christians said about their leader, as he is only mentioned in that context.

Tacitus is obviously talking about the man, though he was not born until several decades after Christ's death so he's not a contemporary. Josephus, too, is talking about the man, though even your text acknowledges that the scholarship is disputed by some (as is Tacitus, though in Tacitus's case most regard him as Authentic.)

As for the Babylonian Talmud, the dates of your website are not the dates I've found elsewhere for it. Most regard it as an oral history first complied in the 6th century, LONG after the fact. Further, "Yeshu" doesn't match Jesus. The numbers and names of his disciples, and the day and method of his death are inaccurate.

As for Lucian, apparently your website didn't realize that Lucian was one of the first novelists. They do acknowledge that the work quoted was a satire, but they don't even consider that, since it IS a satire, Lucian would simply present the buffoonish Christian's own beliefs. Lucian certainly wasn't a historian, and almost certainly did not intend to present a historical version of Christ.

And this is the problem with websites like this. They toss every single reference to Jesus in ancient Roman literature, even though some of it wasn't actually collected until the 6th century, and some is fiction, and others are disputed, and they present it in an incredibly biased fashion as "evidence of Christ." And then I have to spend my valuable time checking your sources, sources that you should have checked to begin with.

Is it any wonder that my default response is, "I doubt your sources are accurate?" Theists in general are horrible about this. They'll find sources in everything if you let them.
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06-02-2009, 02:38 PM
Post: #9
RE: Was Jesus Sent to be Crucified?
(06-02-2009 02:25 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  ...my default response is, "I doubt your sources are accurate?"...

If you are concerned about accuracy, perhaps you should start practicing it yourself. Perhaps you shouldn't say things that are obviously false, and then come up with all sorts of excuses and recriminations after you've been challenged on your own errors.

Everyone makes mistakes from time to time; those who wish to be taken seriously will acknowledge their mistakes and try not to repeat them.

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/ --- http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
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06-02-2009, 03:07 PM
Post: #10
RE: Was Jesus Sent to be Crucified?
If you want that, I'll fully admit I didn't realize Tacitus referred to Jesus by name. I thought he just spoke of the Christians.

But my issues with the Babylonic Talmud and Lucian remain. They are not historical works talking about Jesus, the Babylonic Talmud is likely referring to someone else entirely, while Lucian is referring to the beliefs of Christians, and makes no attempt to be a historical reference to Jesus.
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