Poll: Is lying wrong?
Yes.
Depends on the situation.
No.
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What are your morale beliefs about Deception and Truth?
08-05-2013, 10:53 PM (This post was last modified: 08-05-2013 10:53 PM by Azrael17.)
Post: #1
What are your morale beliefs about Deception and Truth?
One of the ten commandments is: "Thou shall not lie."
Yet Ecclesiastes says: "There is a time for every thing."


What are your morale beliefs about Deception and Truth?
For example if telling the truth would cause discord or harm in some way do you tell the truth or create a lie?
Here's more examples: If the truth would get people killed or start a war would you tell the truth or create a lie?
If the truth would destroy a relationship would you tell it or create a lie?
If the truth would cause harm to you or your loved ones would you tell it or lie?
If a lie could get you success in some fashion would you tell the truth or lie?

Are lies in of themselves always done for selfish reasons or can they be done for selfless reasons?

Is telling the truth always good or are lies some times needed?

"Hidden underneath the stoned cold surface of every Pious Person lays buried a Kinky Pervert, Stop bringing shovels, Where not digging!"-Azrael
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08-06-2013, 12:09 AM (This post was last modified: 08-06-2013 12:09 AM by LightBender.)
Post: #2
RE: What are your morale beliefs about Deception and Truth?
Here's another interesting example of apparent dishonesty/lying being commended in the scriptures:

Luke 16, NIV Wrote:16 Jesus told his disciples: “There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. 2 So he called him in and asked him, ‘What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management, because you cannot be manager any longer.’

3 “The manager said to himself, ‘What shall I do now? My master is taking away my job. I’m not strong enough to dig, and I’m ashamed to beg— 4 I know what I’ll do so that, when I lose my job here, people will welcome me into their houses.’

5 “So he called in each one of his master’s debtors. He asked the first, ‘How much do you owe my master?’

6 “‘Nine hundred gallons[a] of olive oil,’ he replied.

“The manager told him, ‘Take your bill, sit down quickly, and make it four hundred and fifty.’

7 “Then he asked the second, ‘And how much do you owe?’

“‘A thousand bushels[b] of wheat,’ he replied.

“He told him, ‘Take your bill and make it eight hundred.’

8 “The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. 9 I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.
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08-06-2013, 04:44 AM
Post: #3
RE: What are your morale beliefs about Deception and Truth?
I would like to believe that the rich man is really 'ploying' to make the manager realize that it is not the debts that interests him but debtors, instead. If so, the manager fulfilled an end that the rich man desired and there is no lie in that - only that the manager was confused and did not understand the thinking of his boss.
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08-06-2013, 08:49 AM (This post was last modified: 08-06-2013 08:50 AM by EqualAtheist.)
Post: #4
RE: What are your morale beliefs about Deception and Truth?
Have not used this in awhile, but it seems to need to be plugged in here. Just remember, instead of pirate code, this can been bible, quran, or any other book.




If everyone was thinking the same thing, then no one would be thinking at all.
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08-06-2013, 09:31 AM
Post: #5
RE: What are your morale beliefs about Deception and Truth?
Entirely depends on the outcome, but in most cases I think honesty is better and I think people lie more often than they should.
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08-06-2013, 11:11 AM
Post: #6
RE: What are your morale beliefs about Deception and Truth?
(08-05-2013 10:53 PM)Azrael17 Wrote:  One of the ten commandments is: "Thou shall not lie."

I'd question this. I'm not sure about the Hebrew, but it's usually translated in English as something along the lines of "you shall not bear false witness against your neighbour". I'd say that this is far more specific than just "do not lie" - it's lying about what someone has done in order to misrepresent or harm them. There are lots of situations in which someone could lie without breaking this commandment.
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08-06-2013, 11:39 AM
Post: #7
RE: What are your morale beliefs about Deception and Truth?
That's certainly the way it was taught to me as a child - "you shall not bear false witness against your neighbour" and I agree with Pain that this commandment is being massively more specific than just saying "don't lie".
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08-06-2013, 12:47 PM
Post: #8
RE: What are your morale beliefs about Deception and Truth?
So in that case people who falsely slander others or try to make some one seem better than what they are would be sinning?
Then it is it a sin to tell lies?
More to the point if its thou shall not bare false whitness against each other, then would telling a lie about some one or some group of people to avoid war be a sin? If a person is lying for what they believe is a justified cause is false testimony still a sin?

"Hidden underneath the stoned cold surface of every Pious Person lays buried a Kinky Pervert, Stop bringing shovels, Where not digging!"-Azrael
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08-06-2013, 03:30 PM
Post: #9
RE: What are your morale beliefs about Deception and Truth?
(08-06-2013 12:47 PM)Azrael17 Wrote:  So in that case people who falsely slander others or try to make some one seem better than what they are would be sinning?
Then it is it a sin to tell lies?

No, it's a sin to lie in those specific circumstances. If I think someone looks fat but I say that they don't, that's not bearing false witness. If I've broken someone's stuff, and say that I haven't, that's not bearing false witness. Saying "I hate Dalmatians" is not the same as saying "I hate dogs".

Quote:More to the point if its thou shall not bare false whitness against each other, then would telling a lie about some one or some group of people to avoid war be a sin? If a person is lying for what they believe is a justified cause is false testimony still a sin?

Presumably, yes. The nature of strong deontological ethics (ethics based around "rules" and values) is that it doesn't take individual circumstances into account. Perhaps God distinguishes between individual cases, but the rule doesn't seem to.

Of course, many Christians would argue that the Ten Commandments no longer stand as solid rules anyway - they were part of the old covenant, which Jesus' death and resurrection revised into a subtler and less monolithic thing.
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08-07-2013, 09:36 PM
Post: #10
RE: What are your morale beliefs about Deception and Truth?
If you are lying to hurt someone or get someone in trouble so you can get off the hook, then it is wrong.
If you are lying to get off the hook, but not blaming someone, it is a moral gray area because if you are caught lying, you will always be seen as a liar and not trusted, but if you are never caught, only you know you lied and you technically get out of trouble, but you still carry the guilt and the fear of being caught around with you, so it taints your existence and makes you feel unworthy or makes you lie to yourself one or the other.
If you fib in order to prevent hurting someone, it is less of a moral gray area, but still not really right. Better to be honest, but tactful about things or again on the gray scale, to be vague so you do not accuse yourself, but at the same time address to yourself that you did something that was not right and try not to do it again.
If you lie to protect someone... say evil people are out to steal a child and harm the child and you say you do not know where the child is when you DO know, then I think the greater good allows for the lie and in fact may demand it.
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