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What is Homosexuality?
05-17-2013, 11:28 AM (This post was last modified: 05-17-2013 11:33 AM by Painkiller.)
Post: #431
RE: What is Homosexuality?
(05-17-2013 01:23 AM)beyond the horizon Wrote:  When I hear about homosexuality my bones start quaking because of shame and fear.

There's a really simple explanation for that.
Where's my post gone?
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05-18-2013, 06:55 PM (This post was last modified: 05-18-2013 07:38 PM by eduventae.)
Post: #432
RE: What is Homosexuality?
Hello Painkiller,

You said,
(05-08-2013 01:20 PM)Painkiller Wrote:  He didn't "draw back" - he stated clearly that he was lying about having been "cured" in the first place. He didn't "go back to being gay" - he never stopped being gay because gay is what he is, he merely pretended to become heterosexual, in the process not only making a lie of his own life but providing support for the dangerous and harmful fiction that sexual orientation is an illness that can be cured through devotion to a set of religious teachings. I sincerely hope that his revelation will give more "former homosexuals" the courage to come forward and admit that their own "cure" was a lie inspired by fear and expectation.

So you say that Jim Paulk was pretending all along. OK.

However, with my knowledge of the gospel and its power and consequent record of deliverance from all kinds of ailments due to the curse of sin, there must be delivered homosexuals somewhere. Indeed there are and I heard some talk.

If it's really true that homosexuals were naturally born the way they are and are truly unable to overcome the condition because there's absolutely no way out, not only would we all feel terribly sorry for them, they would be extremely miserable in that state of hopelessness!

May I ask you how would you feel? If the gospel can't, neither would any kind of legal protection do them any good. Do you really want them in that state of hopelessness?



Hello Rocketboy,

(05-17-2013 12:27 AM)rocketboy9000 Wrote:  No-one told me I should be proud. I have proven you wrong because you said that just "honest confession" would lead to repentance. Now you have realized that "sorrow" is needed as well.

Oh! I thought it obvious that sorrow for wrong is needed! The closet that one comes out of is that of sorrow for a sinful act. If unaware that a deed is evil, sorrow comes as soon as the individual finds out that it is.

(05-17-2013 12:27 AM)rocketboy9000 Wrote:  Here are three, a detailed explanation of how the society of ancient Judea differs from modern times would fall into its own thread.

Although the settings differ, modern man is as much affected by pride, lust, and greed as ancient man.

(05-17-2013 12:27 AM)rocketboy9000 Wrote:  The biblical system is absolute monarchy. The most prosperous nations are democracies.
The biblical system has a state religion (specifically, Judaism). The most prosperous nations are secular.

The nation of Israel started out with a theocracy where God spoke through prophets. But the people decided they wanted to concentrate power in the hands of a king like the other nations against Samuel's warnings. As with other nations, Israel strayed from God and fell. But you see today that your people are re-gathering in Israel. If the nation becomes divided as pressured, I feel sorry for the nations involved.

Are you sure that the most prosperous nations are secular? History does not tell us that. Even when a nation prospers materially, destructive time bombs lie under the surface.

It is written, "Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people (Proverbs 14:34)." True prosperity is beyond mere possession of material things.

Finally, one thing that sets Israel apart is that it as a nation governed by the law of Moses. America is a democratic republic whose leader is democratically elected and a republic because it is governed by law. Other nations follow suit.

(05-17-2013 12:27 AM)rocketboy9000 Wrote:  The biblical system has no concept of human rights. The most prosperous nations pay great attention to rights.

Then what are the Ten Commandments for? From whence the code that instructs me not to want to kill you?

Please discard the negative glasses that make pictures look like their negatives when viewed through them. Reversed impressions of the Bible and doctrines of fallen man make right appear as wrong, wrong as right, and would lead an individual to following the wrong leader. The treasured Bible I trust came from your people that I respect very well!


(05-17-2013 12:27 AM)rocketboy9000 Wrote:  You could take any words you wanted and say that they are from God, as Moses, Mohammed, and Joseph Smith did. It makes no difference because you got those words out of a book that was printed by humans, distributed by humans, and no doubt you were taught by a human that that book was divine.

It's not your or my saying that determines who is of God and who is not. It is history that speaks of their fruit.

Moses stands in a far different category than that of Mohammed or Joseph Smith because his interaction with God Himself went far beyond mere visions. Besides, Mohammed and Smith took paths that departed from the word of God.

The Bible was not written by mere men, but by men that were inspired witnesses of the power and presence of God. Its 66 authors were widely separated by time, culture, and geography. Yet their contributions added up to the same unique theme -- the person of Savior Jesus Christ. What a miracle! You that are Jewish pronounce the name of Jesus differently.

No other book is esteemed as high as the Bible.

(05-17-2013 12:27 AM)rocketboy9000 Wrote:  Of course I have. Many times I have met people who I bullied when I was younger, and asked for their forgiveness. It was always granted.

Thank you very much! You therefore understand how simple it is to square off with God. It's simple enough even for a child. He has already taken the punishment for your wrongs on the cross and only awaits your acknowledgment.

(05-17-2013 12:27 AM)rocketboy9000 Wrote:  As I told you before, it is my government that endows me with rights, not a god.

But don't let your government be your god. Why depend on fallible man that may as easily take your fundamental rights away? If you told me that I shouldn't take your rights, what should stop me from trying unless I recognize an authority higher than man that gave us unchangeable laws of the universe?


(05-17-2013 12:27 AM)rocketboy9000 Wrote:  Because in one case I am hurting someone; in the other no-one is harmed. If you had read the earlier discussion in this thread you would know what the reply to your argument is.

But the things that you say you unashamedly do hurt people. For example, sex outside of marriage causes reproduction of children outside of a protective covenantal relationship called marriage where the couple is bound by law to assure the best environment for the child. Without the covenant, circumstantial variables multiply immensely.

(05-17-2013 12:27 AM)rocketboy9000 Wrote:  Won't deny it. I'm a Canadian Patriot!

Thank you! Neither will I deny it! As a good citizen of Canada it behooves you to continually purify yourself of sins that reproach nations. The same with me for my nation.

Earl





(05-17-2013 12:27 AM)rocketboy9000 Wrote:  
eduventae Wrote:Thanks for your honestly admitting your lifestyle. But who made you think that you should be proud instead of sorry? You have only indicated a state of will instead of proving me wrong. A lack of sorrow blocks repentance.
No-one told me I should be proud. I have prven you wrong becuase you said that just "honest confession" would lead to repentance. Now you have realized that "sorrow" is needed as well.
eduventae Wrote:If the word of God is not counted as final authority to which repentance is mandatory, anything may be considered right and done with no convicting conscience.
You could take any words you wanted and say that they are from God, as Moses, Mohammed, and Joseph Smith did. It makes no difference becuase you got those words out of a book that was printed by humans, distributed by humans, and no doubt you were taught by a human that that book was divine.
eduventae Wrote:Have you ever told anyone that you were sorry for a deed that you did that was detrimental to him without your knowledge because you found out that it was wrong? ...
Of course I have. Many times I have met people who I bullied when I was younger, and asked for their forgiveness. It was always granted.
eduventae Wrote:If you are informed that a certain act violates the Creator that endowed us with unalienable rights ...
As I told you before, it is my government that endows me with rights, not a god.
eduventae Wrote:Do you determine right and wrong that you should consider your deeds not wrong?
As much as you determined right and wrong when you decided which book to follow (and what interpretation of that book.)
eduventae Wrote:For greater societal health, wealth, and lower crime rates, what principles other than Biblical were obeyed or disallowed to achieve such?
Here are three, a detailed explanation of how the society of ancient Judea differs from modern times would fall into its own thread.
The biblical system is absolute monarchy. The most prosperous nations are democracies.
The biblical system has a state religion (specifically, Judaism). The most prosperous nations are secular.
The biblical system has no concept of human rights. The most prosperous nations pay great attention to rights.
eduventae Wrote:When it comes to whether you would want to kill me or not, you live by the same morality that I do. But when it comes to the sex things you said that you do without sorrow, why the departure?
Because in one case I am hurting someone; in the other no-one is harmed. If you had read the earlier discussion in this thread you would know what the reply to your argument is.

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05-18-2013, 07:59 PM
Post: #433
RE: What is Homosexuality?
Quote: If unaware that a deed is evil, sorrow comes as soon as the individual finds out that it is.
If unaware that a deed is innocent, joy and relief comes as soon as the individual finds out that it is.
Quote:For example, sex outside of marriage causes reproduction of children
Not if I'm having sex with a man, it doesn't.
Quote:outside of a protective covenantal relationship called marriage where the couple is bound by law to assure the best environment for the child.
Actually, parents are bound by law to take care of the child whether they're married or not.
Anyway it always makes me laugh when people say stuff like this, because I'm a bastard in the original sense of the word, my parents are not married, they just lived together for 30 years.
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05-19-2013, 07:49 AM
Post: #434
RE: What is Homosexuality?
(05-18-2013 06:55 PM)eduventae Wrote:  So you say that Jim Paulk was pretending all along. OK.

Assuming that we're talking about John Paulk, he says that he was pretending all along. I'm simply acknowledging what he actually said, not what I want him to say.

"At the time, I truly believed that it would happen. And while many things in my life did change as a Christian, my sexual orientation did not... Please allow me to be clear: I do not believe that reparative therapy changes sexual orientation; in fact, it does great harm to many people."

In other words, he sincerely bought into the "ex-gay" movement believing and hoping that he would change, but he never did, and he now accepts that that method just does not work. That's not "going back".

Quote:However, with my knowledge of the gospel and its power and consequent record of deliverance from all kinds of ailments due to the curse of sin, there must be delivered homosexuals somewhere. Indeed there are and I heard some talk.

I'm sorry, but I do not think that your knowledge of the gospels (which I'm not doubting at all) qualifies you to know that homosexuality is something that you can be "delivered" from. It qualifies you as an expert on Christian doctrine, not the nature of human sexuality.

Quote:If it's really true that homosexuals were naturally born the way they are and are truly unable to overcome the condition because there's absolutely no way out, not only would we all feel terribly sorry for them, they would be extremely miserable in that state of hopelessness!

Firstly, you're the one whose describing homosexuality as some kind of horrible, inescapable curse, not me - for me talking about "escaping" from being homosexual is like escaping from having green eyes. Better yet, it's like escaping from being heterosexual. Being attracted to the same sex is no more a "condition" than being attracted to the opposite sex, and no more hopeless.

Secondly, regardless of your own sexual preferences, your claim that "if homosexuals were naturally born the way they are... we would all feel terribly sorry for them is obviously broken logic. Are you saying that if something was the case then everyone person would know about it without question and feel a particular way? I don't need to say anything else - this argument defeats itself.

Quote:May I ask you how would you feel? If the gospel can't, neither would any kind of legal protection do them any good. Do you really want them in that state of hopelessness?

Again, this is you projecting your judgements onto others. I don't think homosexuals are in "state of hopelessness" (or if they are, it's because people like you have led them to believe that there's something wrong with them, rather than something intrinsic to them), and I have no idea what you mean by "legal protection".

I'll be blunt with it, Edu - I don't think you actually understand what being homosexual is, and I don't think you're prepared to look past your own prejudices and preconceptions to find out. You've decided that it's bad, and you're using the experiences and interpretations of people as equally desperate to believe that as you to justify it.
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05-19-2013, 09:37 PM
Post: #435
RE: What is Homosexuality?
This forums debate is seems to have hit a wall with the same arguments repeated over and over.

One side is against because of strong moral conviction due to culture or religion.

The other side for seems to see this as equality, and progression of everyone being treated fair.

Both have positives and negatives but each in their fullest cause loss of freedom.

From the religious point of view everyone must conform to that belief so those who don't share that belief lose their freedom.

From the side of equality and fairness, that leads to an extreme of " Brave New World", socialism/communism, where everyone gets equality but many lose freedom as a result.

Both sides are right, just pick your right side.
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05-20-2013, 12:39 AM (This post was last modified: 05-20-2013 12:39 AM by Painkiller.)
Post: #436
RE: What is Homosexuality?
No, both sides are not right.

I'm the King of Fence-Sitting, but this is an issue even I don't think can be sat on. Either homosexuality is a perversion against God and nature, and therefore cannot be tolerated, or it's simply another expression of perfectly natural human sexuality, and therefore MUST be. I don't see the compromise here - and I also don't see how accepting the rights of others to express their own sexual identity leads to a nightmarish dystopian future or communism.
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05-20-2013, 06:15 AM (This post was last modified: 05-20-2013 06:19 AM by gorm_sionnach.)
Post: #437
RE: What is Homosexuality?
But, but PK. These people all have really, really strong reactions against homosexuality. Surely their gut feelings, preconditioned by centuries of cultural stigma count for more than silly ideas like justice or equality.

I mean it isn't as if homosexuality has existed in every culture, since time immemorial...

We are lightning, straying from the thunder; miracles of ancient wonder.
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05-20-2013, 06:15 AM
Post: #438
RE: What is Homosexuality?
(05-20-2013 12:39 AM)Painkiller Wrote:  No, both sides are not right.

I'm the King of Fence-Sitting, but this is an issue even I don't think can be sat on. Either homosexuality is a perversion against God and nature, and therefore cannot be tolerated, or it's simply another expression of perfectly natural human sexuality, and therefore MUST be. I don't see the compromise here - and I also don't see how accepting the rights of others to express their own sexual identity leads to a nightmarish dystopian future or communism.

Well I'm opposed and I've stated my reasons before in this thread, and I see the other side and I don't think one is going to convince the other. I would also add that I didn't use religion to state why I'm opposed, but like I said for me to debate in that the other side might see my point of view is futile.

You don't see the long term result because you not looking far enough ahead with the patterns of history. The progressive/liberal is always finding something to progress with or make "equal." It seems culture means absolutely nothing to them and some utopia of equality, fairness, and rainbows is achievable. This is the domino patter that started a long time ago but seemed to speed up in the 60's. Once gay rights are in place, what's next? There will be temporary satisfaction for this then it's time to move on to the next. So what's really next gay polygamous marriage, straight polygamous marriage, married taxes rights to single parents, teenage marriage, marriage to animals for tax purposes, I don't know but it's always progressive. Heck wouldn't surprise me if marriage eventual meant nothing, that would solve the problem right..... Thus my very extreme example " Brave New World."

Destruction of culture breeds deterioration of society.
( please don't equate all I said to just gay marriage that is only a small part of it.)
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05-20-2013, 06:31 AM (This post was last modified: 05-20-2013 06:33 AM by gorm_sionnach.)
Post: #439
RE: What is Homosexuality?
My but you seem to think that culture is some weak concept that needs to be propped up, because the slightest nuance or cultural shift will spell disaster for it.

Teenage marriage, why that is one of the most storied aspects of marriage there is, historically speaking.

It is telling that the best argument you can use, is the logical fallacy of the slippery slope. Oh and throwing bestiality into the mix, always a classy move; because a legally binding contract between two consenting adults who love each other is exactly the same as a person marrying a rabbit.

The "progressive/liberal". liberals have been around for a few centuries now, so how far "ahead" does one need to look understand the "patterns of history". You must realize that "liberals" did not just spring up whole cloth during Roe v. Wade...

We are lightning, straying from the thunder; miracles of ancient wonder.
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05-20-2013, 07:27 AM
Post: #440
RE: What is Homosexuality?
(05-20-2013 06:31 AM)gorm_sionnach Wrote:  My but you seem to think that culture is some weak concept that needs to be propped up, because the slightest nuance or cultural shift will spell disaster for it.

You didn't read what I wrote. It is bad for society as a whole to lose culture. Culture is not weak it just must be maintained not propped up. It seems to me gay rights need to be propped up with protesters, media and activists to make the majority of people think its acceptable in our culture.

(05-20-2013 06:31 AM)gorm_sionnach Wrote:  It is telling that the best argument you can use, is the logical fallacy of the slippery slope. Oh and throwing bestiality into the mix, always a classy move; because a legally binding contract between two consenting adults who love each other is exactly the same as a person marrying a rabbit.

You've elaborated on my hypothetic extreme example, which by far is the easiest to refute and my weakest example. Why don't you refute why polygamy or a young teen marrying a older adult isn't okay, why not insest, they are just people who love each other.

(05-20-2013 06:31 AM)gorm_sionnach Wrote:  The "progressive/liberal". liberals have been around for a few centuries now, so how far "ahead" does one need to look understand the "patterns of history". You must realize that "liberals" did not just spring up whole cloth during Roe v. Wade...

No they did not but the extremism of liberal/progressive movement grew exponentially in the past 60 years, that is history.
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