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What is true salvation? Islam versus Christianity
02-02-2010, 03:40 PM
Post: #1
What is true salvation? Islam versus Christianity
Let me introduce two booklets talking about the true concept of salvation. A small quote from one of them:

"You should also consider that it is God’s eternal and established law that He forgives in response to repentance and penitence, and hears the prayers of His righteous servants which are offered by way of intercession. But we never observe in the Divine law of nature that 'A' hits his own head with a stone and this cures the headache of 'B'. We are, therefore, at a loss to understand how people can acquire inner purification through the suicide committed by the Messiah. Is there any law or philosophy which can make us understand how the Messiah’s blood could have cleansed the inner impurities of other people? Our observation is, in fact, opposed to this principle, because, until the time when the Messiah decided to commit suicide, we find an element of righteousness and godliness among the Christians. After the crucifixion, however, their carnal passions burst forth like a river which breaks its banks and inundates the land.

There is no doubt that even if this suicide on the part of the Messiah was deliberate, it was quite needless. If he had, instead, spent his life in preaching and exhortation, he would have done a lot of good for God’s creation. But this act did not serve them in any way. Yes, if the Messiah had indeed come back to life after his suicide, and had ascended to heaven before the very eyes of the Jews, they would surely have believed in him. But, as things stand, the Jews, and all reasonable people, consider the Messiah’s ascension to be no more than a fable."

To read the booklet 'Fountain of Christianity' go to:

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/Fou...0505MN.pdf

Another booklet by the same author 'How to be Free from Sin' can also be reviewed online:

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/How...0806MN.pdf

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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02-02-2010, 06:07 PM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2010 06:07 PM by Stereophonic.)
Post: #2
RE: What is true salvation? Islam versus Christianity
(02-02-2010 03:40 PM)Ahmadi Wrote:  ...After the crucifixion, however, their carnal passions burst forth like a river which breaks its banks and inundates the land...

Still quoting this, even after you acknowledged elsewhere that you could find no support or documentation for such a claim?

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/ --- http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
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02-02-2010, 09:41 PM
Post: #3
RE: What is true salvation? Islam versus Christianity
Stereophonic once again you have gone on a tangent and non-issue.

The crux and essence of the discussion here is:

"You should also consider that it is God’s eternal and established law that He forgives in response to repentance and penitence, and hears the prayers of His righteous servants which are offered by way of intercession. But we never observe in the Divine law of nature that 'A' hits his own head with a stone and this cures the headache of 'B'."

If X was to commit a murder and I as a Sheriff go out and hang Y as atonement, or deterrant punishment, it would be against any rationality or common sense.

The Islamic concept is to genuinely repent and give up the negative thoughts and behavior that will change the human psyche and eventually the behavior. For example the twelve step Alcohol Anonymous program will be totally in line with Islamic concept. Whether Jesus died or did not die on the cross has no bearing on the human psychology and behavior. It may only encourage sin in as much as it reassures the believer that he has achieved salvation by just believing in the the sacrifice on the cross. Now, imagine if an alcoholic believes that Jesus died for him or did not die for him, it has no bearing on his addiction. But if he genuinely repents and goes through the 12 step program he can be reformed. That may be part of the reason why in the program they stress on a power beyond the person but no mention of Original Sin, atonement or Trinity, as that does not help in any reformation.

I know there is some ambivalence about the issue, whether belief in Jesus saves you or not. There is perhaps some circular reasoning. After all in the words of Kierkgaard all these concepts are paradox par excellence. To me it is fairly clear, if I were a Christian and believed that Jesus died for my sins, then I have no further responsiblity except to continue in my adamant belief that he has alreay died for my sins. My actions will be immaterial in that circumstance as regards my salvation in the here after. Please do not make another circular argument where you want to have your cake and eat it too.

I am second coming of Thomas Paine. If you are a Christian, have you read Age of Reason?
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02-02-2010, 10:56 PM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2010 10:58 PM by Stereophonic.)
Post: #4
RE: What is true salvation? Islam versus Christianity
(02-02-2010 09:41 PM)Ahmadi Wrote:  ...The crux and essence of the discussion here is...

Let's look at the Islamic side of the equation here, and then compare it to the Christian understanding. According to the Islamic view, let us suppose that Allah takes his pen and writes that Jones will intentionally push Smith down the stairs, resulting in Smith breaking his legs and being unable to work, such that he loses his job, his medical insurance, and his home, finding himself racked with pain for months and burdened with medical bills he cannot pay. Then Allah also writes with his pen that many years later, after Smith has died alone and embittered, Jones will genuinely repent of the action that Allah had penned for him for him to do.

At the appointed times, all of these events happen exactly as Allah had scripted with his pen. And Allah, infinite in mercy, freely forgives Jones for having hurt Smith so badly.

To a Christian, there are a host of theological problems with the Islamic approach to this hypothetical situation. But before I explain the Christian side of things, I want to give you an opportunity to make any statements you feel necessary in order to better understand the Islamic point of view. I await your considered response.

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/ --- http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
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02-03-2010, 02:28 AM
Post: #5
RE: What is true salvation? Islam versus Christianity
Ahmadi wrote
"You should also consider that it is God’s eternal and established law that He forgives in response to repentance and penitence, and hears the prayers of His righteous servants which are offered by way of intercession. But we never observe in the Divine law of nature that 'A' hits his own head with a stone and this cures the headache of 'B'. We are, therefore, at a loss to understand how people can acquire inner purification through the suicide committed by the Messiah. Is there any law or philosophy which can make us understand how the Messiah’s blood could have cleansed the inner impurities of other people? Our observation is, in fact, opposed to this principle, because, until the time when the Messiah decided to commit suicide, we find an element of righteousness and godliness among the Christians. After the crucifixion, however, their carnal passions burst forth like a river which breaks its banks and inundates the land.

How can any of this be taken seriously, hitting someone on the head with a rock won't cure any headache.Before the "messiah committed suicide" there weren't any christians, so how could they have shown godliness and righteousness. The idea that Jesus dying cured original sin is based upon Faith just like all of your beliefs. The entire paragraph is nonsensical.
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02-03-2010, 07:12 AM
Post: #6
RE: What is true salvation? Islam versus Christianity
Where did Jesus said that only belief in him is the way to salvation?

" "But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself. "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself." (From the NIV Bible, Ezekiel 3:19-21)"

As we clearly see, the Old Testament clearly and directly refutes the nonsense about salvation can only be obtained through believing in Jesus Christ as "GOD" who died on the cross for your sins. How do these verses from the book of Ezekiel supposed to agree with all of the lies in the New Testament about Salvation? And ironically, and as we've seen above, the topic of Salvation in the New Testament is in contradiction! The Bible has the worst contradictions and inconsistencies in the most important topic, Salvation!
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02-03-2010, 07:20 AM
Post: #7
RE: What is true salvation? Islam versus Christianity
(02-03-2010 07:12 AM)TruthWon Wrote:  Where did Jesus said that only belief in him is the way to salvation?

" "But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself. "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself." (From the NIV Bible, Ezekiel 3:19-21)"

As we clearly see, the Old Testament clearly and directly refutes the nonsense about salvation can only be obtained through believing in Jesus Christ as "GOD" who died on the cross for your sins. How do these verses from the book of Ezekiel supposed to agree with all of the lies in the New Testament about Salvation? And ironically, and as we've seen above, the topic of Salvation in the New Testament is in contradiction! The Bible has the worst contradictions and inconsistencies in the most important topic, Salvation!

Heeding Parousia's slight rebuke.
What has this got to do with anything previously posted in this thread. Sry
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02-03-2010, 07:43 AM
Post: #8
RE: What is true salvation? Islam versus Christianity
(02-03-2010 07:20 AM)minus459 Wrote:  
(02-03-2010 07:12 AM)TruthWon Wrote:  Where did Jesus said that only belief in him is the way to salvation?

" "But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself. "Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself." (From the NIV Bible, Ezekiel 3:19-21)"

As we clearly see, the Old Testament clearly and directly refutes the nonsense about salvation can only be obtained through believing in Jesus Christ as "GOD" who died on the cross for your sins. How do these verses from the book of Ezekiel supposed to agree with all of the lies in the New Testament about Salvation? And ironically, and as we've seen above, the topic of Salvation in the New Testament is in contradiction! The Bible has the worst contradictions and inconsistencies in the most important topic, Salvation!

Heeding Parousia's slight rebuke.
What has this got to do with anything previously posted in this thread. Sry

Can you show please the concept of salvation adopt by christians today, is this mention in Bible by any verse in direct words of Jesus?
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02-03-2010, 07:53 AM
Post: #9
RE: What is true salvation? Islam versus Christianity
As we can clearly see the OT has nothing to do with Christianity, the word means follower of Christ.
The OT is before Christ, irrelevant. Jesus apparently turned up to make a new religion, not to perpetuate Judaism....the OT
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02-03-2010, 08:07 AM
Post: #10
RE: What is true salvation? Islam versus Christianity
(02-03-2010 07:53 AM)minus459 Wrote:  As we can clearly see the OT has nothing to do with Christianity, the word means follower of Christ.
The OT is before Christ, irrelevant. Jesus apparently turned up to make a new religion, not to perpetuate Judaism....the OT

Is this writen in the NT, that Jesus turned people and ordered them towards new religion?
Why did Jesus said that keep the commandments and follow the commandments in order to go to heaven?
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