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What says Science about these?
09-09-2009, 06:02 PM
Post: #1
What says Science about these?
I have few questions which I wish you to get answers one by one and all of them.

1: Supose there is a machine which come in front of you which no one in the world has seen before, who will be able to tell you it's machanism and function?

2: When did we come to know about creation of this universe?

3: The Light of Moon is it's own light or a borrowed light?

4: What is the shape of earth (which we live on), and When did we come to know about it's true shape?

5: Do sun rotates in it's own exice? Or it only revolves?

6: Is universe still expanding? Or it's same size as it was thousands years ago?

7: When did we come to know about Water cycle and function of rain?

8: Do plant's (trees etc) got sexes (male and female)? When did we come to know this?

9: There are 2 types of water Sweet and Salty, (river and sea water), when both these waters meet why they don't mix with each other? Is there a barier? If yes When did we come to know this?

10: Is every living creature is made out of water? When did we come to know this?

11: When did we come to know about living style of Ant, Bee and Spider etc?

12: When did we come to know about ceation of a Man inside mother's body? Process of creation I mean.

Hope you will answer all of these!
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09-09-2009, 07:43 PM
Post: #2
RE: What says Science about these?
Wait a second. I answered all of these on the thread on this SAME FORUM, just one post lower than this currently. I answered them all, and posed some of my own. And you ignored this? In order to copy and paste your post again?

Really bad form, sir. Really, really bad form.

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09-09-2009, 08:25 PM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2009 08:30 PM by Parousia.)
Post: #3
RE: What says Science about these?
(09-09-2009 06:02 PM)kashif Wrote:  I have few questions which I wish you to get answers one by one and all of them.

1: Supose there is a machine which come in front of you which no one in the world has seen before, who will be able to tell you it's machanism and function?

Depends… This question reminds me of Arthur Clarke’s analogy of Leonardo da Vinci being shown a modern day helicopter. He would marvel at the materials and workmanship but would have no trouble understanding what it was for and how it worked. Until he got to the electronics of course. If the machine you mention works on scientific principles that are currently understood then there is a very good chance that its mechanism and function could be figured out.

2: When did we come to know about creation of this universe?

The first scientific notions that the universe had an origin a finite time ago were in the work of Alexander Friedmann in his study of Einstein’s General Relativity (1922). But Friedmann was mostly interested in the mathematics per se, not in its ramifications. The first scientist to seriously this idea was Georges Lemaître (1927). But his work with Relativity was not taken all that seriously until Edwin Hubble’s analysis of astronomical observations demonstrated the expansion of the universe. Since then, there have been many advances in the understanding of the so-called Big Bang.

3: The Light of Moon is it's own light or a borrowed light?

The light of the Moon is mostly reflected sunlight. However, the dark portions of the moon can be seen to have a faint glow. This is the reflection of light from the Earth, either sunlight or artificial light.

4: What is the shape of earth (which we live on), and When did we come to know about it's true shape?

Ancient seafaring people understood that the Earth was curved by observing that ships appear mast first or disappear hull first over the horizon. The implication was that the Earth was a sphere. In ancient Greece, Eratosthenes calculated the size of the Earth to a pretty good approximation by measuring the difference in the angle of sunlight at different latitudes.

The actual shape of the Earth is a slightly oblate spheroid (pear shape). This was discovered in 1958 by satellite. The southern hemisphere, which has less continental land mass to weigh it down, bulges out slightly a moderate distance below the equator as the earth rotates on its axis.

5: Do sun rotates in it's own exice? Or it only revolves?

The Sun rotates on its axis. But because it I gaseous and not solid, different parts rotate at different rates. The period of rotation at the sun’s equator is 25.6 days but 33.5 days at the poles.

The Sun participates in the general revolution of stars around the galaxy but its motion is actually quite complex. It also bobs up and down as it revolves, like a horse on a carousel.

6: Is universe still expanding? Or it's same size as it was thousands years ago?

The universe is still expanding. In fact the expansion is accelerating, apparently due to something called dark energy. By the way, the age of the universe is about 13.7 billion years.
7: When did we come to know about Water cycle and function of rain?

The Water Cycle is all about how and where water spends its time, in the oceans and in freshwater, in ice and snow and in clouds, and how it gets from one to another. I do not have the slightest idea who first described it in detail, although the basic idea has to be as old as thought.

8: Do plant's (trees etc) got sexes (male and female)? When did we come to know this?

Some plants are heterosexual, with separate male and female plants. Some plants have both male and female aspects on the same plant or even in the same flower. Some plants even combine these different aspects. This has to have been noticed at least as long ago as the invention of agriculture, perhaps 10,000 years ago.

9: There are 2 types of water Sweet and Salty, (river and sea water), when both these waters meet why they don't mix with each other? Is there a barier? If yes When did we come to know this?

Salt water and fresh water do mix, as was surely known in prehistoric times.

10: Is every living creature is made out of water? When did we come to know this?

Every living creature above the level of a virus contains water. In humans it is 55-60 percent. I do not know who first stated it that way, but the fluid content of all living creatures is an obvious fact.

11: When did we come to know about living style of Ant, Bee and Spider etc?

Insects (six legs) and arthropods (eight legs) have surely been investigated since time immemorial. The first persin to do a truly scientific study of insects was probably Ulisse Aldrovandi who published a book on the subject in 1602.

12: When did we come to know about ceation of a Man inside mother's body? Process of creation I mean.

If you mean a scientific study or human procreation, the first person to get an inkling of what actually happens was probably Leeuwenhoek., the inventor of the microscope. He discovered spermatozoa in 1677.
(09-09-2009 07:43 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  Wait a second. I answered all of these on the thread on this SAME FORUM, just one post lower than this currently. I answered them all, and posed some of my own. And you ignored this? In order to copy and paste your post again?

Really bad form, sir. Really, really bad form.

GT

I read your post and responses ( Cool ) after I had written mine but was not going to let all that writing go to waste. Wink
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09-09-2009, 09:17 PM
Post: #4
RE: What says Science about these?
Not your fault, it was kashif's bad form for copying and pasting his post. I think you covered most everything I did in my post, except for my speculation as to where kashif was going with his argument (since most of this is the same "Quran predicts seven AMAZING facts about modern science!" stuff that has already been debunked at least twice on this forum.)

I also asked him a few questions in return. But in general you know more about the science of this stuff than I do, so thanks again.

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09-09-2009, 11:21 PM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2009 11:30 PM by kashif.)
Post: #5
RE: What says Science about these?
Now I am ready to answer as I got some time!

First of all I shall comment on your answers, after that I will answers to all questions of TG! see below, I tried to write good English this time.

Comment 1: You are right; this is noted that creator can tell you the function properly.

Comment 2: Yes the big bang theory, I also hear this is a proven science fact, and I also find this in Quran, I will not say it is enough! See yourself (Chapter 21 Verse 30)

Comment 3. You are right in assuming but not believing, so see physically Quran chapter 25 Verse 61. If someone understand Arabic word Muneer (used for Moon) means Reflected Light!


Comment4. Yes you are again very correct, this is the same thing I believe, and Shape of earth is more like Ostrich egg Right? It is mentioned in Quran Also, (C79:V30) See yourself. Word used here in Arabic is “Dahaha” it means Ostrich egg.

Comment5. You are right, I am sorry for my English which is poor. Actually I want to know the time since we know. Few years back when we were in School, science told us that sun is stationery, it does not move at all. But now we got to know very recently by Science but in Quran it was mentioned 1400+ years ago. See yourself Quran (C21:V33)

Comment 6. Once again correct answer!!! Yes universe is expanding. But science got this recently while it’s already mentioned in Quran 1400+ years ago. See yourself. Quran (C51:V47)

Comment 7. Once again sorry for my bad English, but since you understand a bit, it’s fine. Anyway Water Cycle and function of rain is clearly and with great details mentioned in Quran at various places, you can see yourself. Quran (C39:21) (C30:V24) (C15:V22) (C23:V18) (C24:V43) (C30:V48) (C7:V17) I can give more references if needed.
Comment8. Sorry again for bad English! Anyway yes plants have sex, male and female. Science told us now, but Quran mentioned it 1400+ years ago, see yourself. Quran (C20:V53)!

Comment9. Parousia, you are wrong, both waters don’t mix, if they do mix, then water of sea could easily destroy drinking water which is in rivers. TG, First of all, I wish to let you know that Quran is not book of Science, but it is book of Signs from God. Your answer is not correct; correct is that it’s mentioned in Quran clearly! See yourself (C25:V53) and (C55:V17/18)

Comment10. Yes every living creature is made out of Water. See yourself (C21:V30).
TG, Yes we are not made out of 100% water, what other things we are made out of is also mentioned in Quran, if needed I can give you those references also. Need?


Comment11. Yes you are right not difficult concept, but on “Nat Geo” they always say science recently got to know the life style of Spider, of course they are right but Quran told 1400+ years ago same life style of Spider see (C29:V41). About Ant (C27:V17-18) About Bee (C16:V68-69)

Comment12. Well, if I explain you will mind, I wish you to see yourself in this video; this is totally according to Quran and Science with reference numbers of Verses. Even if you don’t want to trust in Quran, see this link for knowledge. Link is

Final comments: TG as you already replied that Creator can tell you exactly what mechanism is then see all references in Quran about things; these 12 are out of hundreds mentioned in Quran. Now you should believe that (Allah) the creator of everything including Universe is telling us mechanism of these things. Of course He is the creator and He knows best of all!
Now my answers to your questions one by one, see below.

1. Would you ever beat and torture your children for all of eternity because they disobeyed you?
Answer 1: Of course not, because they are our beloved, we love our children. I understand what you mean by this question, I answer in advance. God is not our Father, (This is Christian point of view). Muslims believe God is creator of everything including human beings. So He can of course punish us for disobeying Him. For example, You make/create anything like a cell phone but it does not work according to your requirements, then of course you can destroy your cell phone or throw in fire!

2. Would you ever torture anyone for doing exactly what you told them to do?
Answer 2: Of course not. I shall not torture anyone for doing exactly what I told them to do. But if I have given someone a power of choice told them if you will do this then you will get reward and if you do that you will be punished, then I shall do according to my statements!

3. What documented, falsifiable evidence do you have that Allah exists?
Answer 3: What documented, falsifiable evidence do you have that Allah does not exists? We have Quran a clear proof, a pure book and true guidance for people who trust. It proves to us Allah not only exists but also listens and watches everything we are doing. But Allah has promised to give rewards or punishments on the Day of Judgment (accordingly). Allah knows everything going on. I believe in Allah due to a lot of proofs given by Quran and a lot of scientific proofs that match with Quran (word of God), so when Quran is word of God, of course there is a God, you can call Him with the name of Allah, God or any other good name.

4. What proof do you have that you’re particular sect of Islam is true?
Answer 4: What proof do you have that you’re particular sect of Atheism is true? I have word of God as mentioned in previous answer.

5. What will happen to the souls of people who are not Muslim because they were born in, say, a fundamentalist christian America?
Answer 5: Everyone who does not believe in One and Only God and/or does not follow his true teachings will go to Fire on the Day of Judgment.

6. What should happen to the Jews in Israel?
Jews in Israel at this time of period you mean? I guess so.
Maybe there are few Jews who don’t know actually about Islam; mostly they know what they hear from Media, same things for other people. But if any Muslim has not invited them to Islam and they are Worshiping one and only God and honestly they are doing according to teachings of Moses (PBUH) then those people will not go to fire, but if they knowing about Quran, Islam and Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and not accepting the truth then of course will go to fire.
sorry forgot to add the link in Comment 12. Link is as below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg6NhnYbqUQ

Please see this link and get reply on your answers to my question # 12.

I hope this will help a lot!

Best Web sites are http://www.harunyahya.com and http://irf.net/
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09-10-2009, 12:23 AM
Post: #6
RE: What says Science about these?
So, I'll stick to my questions, and let Parousia deal with his. His questions are scientific (which he's better at,) while mine are more philosophical (which . . . well, he's probably still better at, but at least I'm on firmer ground with.)

1. You seemed to get hung up on the term "father". So drop it. Would you torture ANYONE for all eternity with the worst tortures imaginable, regardless of what position you had over them, simply for not obeying you? If you were god, would you torture them with hell? I know I wouldn't. In addition, why should you do what someone says just because they're god? Is a soldier absolved of guilt if he was "just following orders"? Is a child absolved of guilt if he is "just obeying his parents"? In the same manner a human is not absolved of guilt for following a cruel and hateful god. The human sacrifices practiced by the Aztecs were cruel and barbarous, and yet they were done sincerely, for they believed that blood made the sun rise. Does that justify the Aztecs?

2. See, here's the thing. You believe Allah is all-knowing and all-powerful. Both of these at the same time. Further, you believe that Allah often interferes with the hearts and minds of men throughout history, and causes all things to happen. Further, you believe that Allah creates each of us in the womb. Then how are we responsible? For us to sin in any way we have to be a deviation. We have to be something apart from the goodness that Allah created. For us to do anything contrary to his will means that he is NOT all powerful, and he is NOT all knowing, because we are able to defy him. If Allah is able to be defied then he is not Allah. If Allah is Allah, then it is Allah who does everything, and not us. Hell at this point becomes nothing but a cruel, meaningless torture.

3. That is not how science works. Evidence can be positive or negative, but theories are proven through positive evidence only. Negative evidence can only disprove theories. The theory of evolution is proven through the positive evidence of observation of speciation, of tracking genetic markers, of the fossil record, and many other proofs. The theory of the big bang is supported by evidence of microwave background radiation, the continuing stellar evolution that we observe in various stages throughout the universe, the continuing expansion of the universe, and other evidences. But there is no such evidence for Allah. None at all. There is not one shred of documented, falsifiable evidence for Allah. That puts Allah on the same playing field as Santa Claus, God, and the flying spaghetti monster. You cannot prove they don't exist either. Incidentally, every verse you quote in your answer to Parousia is severely mangled in translation to mean what you say it means. It could easily mean other, more common things. Like the verse with the sun, which could easily mean that they thought the sun orbited the earth (as Arabs actually did think during that period of history.) Or the verse with salt and freshwater, which refers to the barrier between the Mediterranean and the Atlantic - which are BOTH saltwater. And the big bang did not cause "smoke". It didn't even cause heavy clumps of gas until much later.

4. The proof I have is all the evidence for it. We know evolution can happen without outside influence. We know stars and planets can form without outside influence. There are very good theories, supported (though not proven) by evidence that show how life could form without outside influence. The world functions without any observable outside influence. The entire universe quite simply does not need god, every observation we make shows this. Hence my proof: There is no god, and Atheism is real. What do you have? Why are you right, and not the other sects of Islam? Why are you right, and not Christianity? Why are you right, and not Bokononism?

5-6. I consider that monstrous. And quite unjust. Again, you couldn't even answer #4 properly, you had to turn the question around on me. At least with Atheism there's a pretty good answer, but there's no good reason to choose Islam over Christianity. There's no good reason to choose Islam over Judaism, or Hinduism, or Baha'i, or anything else. There's no evidence that Allah is true, and God and Shiva are not. That being the case, how cruel and spiteful is Allah to give no clear evidence of his existence, and then torture anyone who does not believe in him?

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09-10-2009, 12:17 PM
Post: #7
RE: What says Science about these?
You are calling Allah as cruel and making torture, it’s not good to say at all. Allah is all Merciful. Punishment is only for those who are ignorant Allah. If you have read Quran then you must know that there is a Satan also (Enemy of Allah) who causes disobeying of Allah/God. This war was started when first man (Adam) was created, read all story in Quran, Satan is not powerful than Allah, but Allah has promised to him and gave him limit until the doomsday. This is Satan who is making you believe in theories and not word of God (Quran). Don’t think me as an enemy, I swear I am wishing my best for you and this is the reason I am answering and trying to convince you because if you will die as ignorant then there is no place for you to rest but will go to fire along with Satan.

As you already know there are 2 types of people, Positive and Negative, both actually think they are right. Same thinking is yours on your place and mine on my place. You are totally depending on theories as you already know not proven, but still you are trusting on them. I know when we were in School few years ago, theory was that Sun is stationary; people who were ignorant objected Quran and Islam that Quran says sun revolves while science say it is stationary so Quran is wrong, but after some time Science discovered that Sun also revolves and it is not Stationary. I know many other theories like this which taken U turns, but I am no more wishing to do useless debate.

Allah is God, Allah says in Quran, You can call any good name for Allah, not necessary that you call Him Allah only, if some calls that God, Allah or Shiva or Rehman or Yeshiva or Khuda or any other name in his language, it’s ok, it does not mean to Muslims anything.

Allah has right to destroy his creation, Allah has right to send disobeying people into Fire. Everyone who will follow Satan (making people to be disbelievers) of course they are Army of Satan against Allah so Allah is all powerful and will destroy them or will send them to the fire at Day of Judgment.

There are Billions of People on earth who are Muslims, obeying Allah, There were billions of people who obeyed Allah. Also there are Billons of people who are not obeying Allah and Billons did not. It does not matter to us at all, only people can pray to Allah for helping people like you to understand the truth and not to follow Satan’s teachings. Satan is also from the start of Earth and will remain alive until the doomsday. He is creating big evils on the earth and also with the help of Non Believers and also with the help of Bad Muslim called people.

Yes Allah created us, Allah is all powerful but we never say and can not say that Allah is causing everything. Allah has given every human being choice and guideline. Human itself has right to choose any way he wants, but results are already told by Allah. If you will choose way of Satan then there is fire for you where you will live forever, but if you Follow Guidence of Allah (Quran) then you will be rewarded with Paradise and you will remain there forever, no death again after first death.

Science is part of Quran and Quran is Guideline, Science is not full guideline at all!

If you know Sun revolves, If you know Moon has reflected light and Sun has it’s own light, if you know process of human creation inside the womb, if you know other aspects of Science does this make you disbelieve in God? Of course not, Science can not disprove existence of God.

Yes science works on theories and a lot of theories about one settled science fact, when one fact is created theories gone waste. So trusting in theories and saying there is no God, is not logical.

Once again I wish to let you know that I am honest and wish you to accept the truth before you see something after death and then believe in God, of course that time’s acceptance will be nothing. Please don’t consider me as enemy. I at my points wish you to be honest with you and come to Islam as thousands of other people are coming. If you want to remain and atheist of course you have right to do so. My duty was to invite you as it was ordered to me, so I have fulfilled my job. It’s your time to think and search for the truth. I believe you are a positive man and will be able to find the truth sooner or later. May Allah helps you!

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09-10-2009, 01:08 PM
Post: #8
RE: What says Science about these?
How can an all-powerful, all-knowing deity have a Satan figure (Iblis, as I recall,) who can challenge him? It is impossible. No, if there is an Iblis in the Quran, then it is Allah who makes Iblis do everything that he does. Thus, all evil in the world is ultimately caused by Allah, and is not evil at all.

The only other explanation is that Allah is not all-powerful and all-knowing. Iblis is not an enemy of Allah, but is controlled by Allah, as is everything else. And thus every soul sent into hell is Allah's fault. Allah tortures them for no reason, for it is Allah that guides Iblis. Otherwise Allah is not all-powerful and all-knowing.

Besides which, even if the rest were true, it is still torture. Hell is a horrible, torturous place in both Christian and Muslim mythologies. What sort of ethical god would send people there for ANY reason? Especially a reason as innocuous as ignorance? Any way you look at it, Allah is cruel and tortures others.

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09-10-2009, 01:55 PM
Post: #9
RE: What says Science about these?
(09-10-2009 12:17 PM)kashif Wrote:  Allah is God, Allah says in Quran, You can call any good name for Allah, not necessary that you call Him Allah only, if some calls that God, Allah or Shiva or Rehman or Yeshiva or Khuda or any other name in his language, it’s ok, it does not mean to Muslims anything.

If I am understanding this correctly, the idea is similar to what Catholics call Baptism of Desire. If a person acts morally, according to the natural moral law that God implanted in everyone, they are saved even if they never heard of Jesus.

(09-10-2009 12:17 PM)kashif Wrote:  Allah has right to destroy his creation, Allah has right to send disobeying people into Fire. Everyone who will follow Satan (making people to be disbelievers) of course they are Army of Satan against Allah so Allah is all powerful and will destroy them or will send them to the fire at Day of Judgment.

And this sounds very much like apocalypticism. That included the idea that the human agents of a supernatural force of Evil (Satan) had temporary dominion over the Earth, but that those on the side of Good, as determined by their actions, would be vindicated and rewarded in the future by divine intervention.

The idea of apocalypticism started to appear in Jewish writings about 200 years before the start of Christianity and lies at its heart, although few Christians know that word.
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