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Whats really on Gods Mind?
05-14-2009, 01:48 PM
Post: #1
Whats really on Gods Mind?
Sometimes I wonder about God and religion, how different they are, but they keep getting placed together. I hear religion say one thing, then I read God say another. Perhaps the most important subject to think about, is the Salvation of humanity. Whats really on Gods mind concerning Salvation? What does the bible say, that God himself says about Salvation? Well I looked and I was surprised. I read it for myself.

Job 23:13;" But God is unique and who can turn him, what his soul desires, that he does." Well that seems simple enough to understand, God does what he wants to do, and he gets what he desires to have. But what about Salvation, how does God feel about that? 1Tim. 2:3-4;"This is Good and Acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who Desires that All men are to be saved and to come to the Knowledge of the truth."

Now this verse shook me at first, because of what I had been taught since my youth. Nobody taught me that God wants, God desires, God intends, God agrees with, God feels its Good and Acceptable for everybody to be saved and to come to understand him and his truth.

No, nobody talked to me like these verses talk to me. These verses are saying something different than what religion is saying. These verses do not " Limit Gods desires toward human Salvation." In fact they say that God desires " All people" to be saved. None are being left out. I knid of like that type of Grace and Hope, I kind of like it.

It " Sounds unbelivable", but I started looking into the bible for more evidence of Gods desires. And I found that they were not " Limited", everyone was being included. My view of God and Salvation changed.

Peace.
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05-14-2009, 02:06 PM
Post: #2
RE: Whats really on Gods Mind?
Well first, this is what God is really thinking.

What God Does All Day

On a more serious note . . . sure. There's passages in the New Testament that says God loves everyone and wants to save everyone. Then there's passages that say God rejects those who don't come to him in the right way (Romans, James, the Gospels), passages that has God altering the hearts of men so that they do not come to him (Exodus, 1 and 2 Samuel), and God just generally being a jerk with no good reason (Exodus-Judges).

This presents us with a few problems. Luckily, there are some solutions to the problems.

1. God doesn't exist. This is the simplest answer. God doesn't exist and all that Bible stuff is made up. There's an amazing amount of evidence to support this, and it makes perfect sense. But, in the interest of completeness . . .

2. God is evil and the New Testament is not divinely inspired. This would certainly explain how the God of the Old Testament can be so cruel. Those in the New Testament who describe God this way are making accurate commentary, while those who do not are simply wrong.

3. The God of the Old Testament was actually the demiurge. This is my favorite theory, even though it's almost certainly wrong. The theory goes like this - In addition to God, there is an evil god. Possibly Lucifer, who is not as powerful as God, possibly just as powerful as God. This evil god, the demiurge, made the world. He set the rules. He caused man's fall. He kills, maims, and generally acts like an evil jerk throughout the Old Testament. He is capricious, unfair, and again, evil. Then round about 0 AD the good God steps in and says, "Okay, enough is enough, you've had your fun, time for me to fix it." Thus the loving God of the New Testament.

I think #1 is right, but those are the options for reconciliation as I see it.

Now, if you don't mind, I need to see about getting myself one of those awesome rocket bikes . . .
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05-14-2009, 02:08 PM (This post was last modified: 05-14-2009 02:12 PM by mickiel.)
Post: #3
RE: Whats really on Gods Mind?
Then I looked at 1Tim.4:10;" For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the Living God, who is the Savior of All men, especially of believers." That seems like two distinct groups to me, " All Humans", and then it seperately says " Especially believers", two different groups. So I strated thinking., Wow! You mean to tell me God is desiring all to be saved, and nobody told me about it. This is unbelivable, but I was reading it for myself, not listening to others, and that is an entirely differing level of learning.

Here the bible is calling God the Savior of all men, and saying that he personally desires all humans to be saved. I mean its including everyone, which is strange because religions don't include everyone in Salvation.

I was actually starting to smile for the first time in a long time of reading the bible. I'm starting to like this picture I see.

Peace.
(05-14-2009 02:06 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  Well first, this is what God is really thinking.

What God Does All Day

On a more serious note . . . sure. There's passages in the New Testament that says God loves everyone and wants to save everyone. Then there's passages that say God rejects those who don't come to him in the right way (Romans, James, the Gospels), passages that has God altering the hearts of men so that they do not come to him (Exodus, 1 and 2 Samuel), and God just generally being a jerk with no good reason (Exodus-Judges).

This presents us with a few problems. Luckily, there are some solutions to the problems.

1. God doesn't exist. This is the simplest answer. God doesn't exist and all that Bible stuff is made up. There's an amazing amount of evidence to support this, and it makes perfect sense. But, in the interest of completeness . . .

2. God is evil and the New Testament is not divinely inspired. This would certainly explain how the God of the Old Testament can be so cruel. Those in the New Testament who describe God this way are making accurate commentary, while those who do not are simply wrong.

3. The God of the Old Testament was actually the demiurge. This is my favorite theory, even though it's almost certainly wrong. The theory goes like this - In addition to God, there is an evil god. Possibly Lucifer, who is not as powerful as God, possibly just as powerful as God. This evil god, the demiurge, made the world. He set the rules. He caused man's fall. He kills, maims, and generally acts like an evil jerk throughout the Old Testament. He is capricious, unfair, and again, evil. Then round about 0 AD the good God steps in and says, "Okay, enough is enough, you've had your fun, time for me to fix it." Thus the loving God of the New Testament.

I think #1 is right, but those are the options for reconciliation as I see it.

Now, if you don't mind, I need to see about getting myself one of those awesome rocket bikes . . .



Not that I am against sarcasm or Atheism, its just that neither makes sense to me. Sarcasm and Atheism are just not for me. I mean what works for you, is for you, and I wish you well on your bike journey.

Peace.
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05-14-2009, 02:24 PM
Post: #4
RE: Whats really on Gods Mind?
Well the first bit isn't sarcasm, it's humor. It's just funny.

The rest isn't sarcasm either. It's honestly the only logical options available. You cannot pretend that the God of the Old Testament, and even parts of the New Testament, isn't cruel, capricious, and what we in modern society would consider evil. Quite honestly almost everyone in America is more moral than God ever is, simply on the issue of salvation.

What are the requirements for salvation? "That whosoever shall believeth on him shall not perish, but shall have eternal life" (John 3:16). Now I don't "believeth" as required by that verse. So I'm going to hell, according to Christian belief. What kind of sick, twisted God sends people to hell simply for not believing in him? Would you lock your kids in the basement if they didn't believe in you? Would you torture them while they were locked up there?

Congratulations. You are more moral than God. That's not sarcasm, it's just the truth.
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05-14-2009, 04:55 PM
Post: #5
RE: Whats really on Gods Mind?
(05-14-2009 01:48 PM)mickiel Wrote:  I hear religion say one thing, then I read God say another.

You may wish to consider the possibility that the words you attribute to God are also the product of religion. The writings in the Bible are the thoughts of men expressing their beliefs (their "religion") about God. Your thoughts regarding the meaning of the texts are, in a way, expressions of what you believe (your "religion").

I submit (respectfully) that you are simply talking about interpretation, not religion.

---------------
Not selling anything.
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05-14-2009, 09:55 PM (This post was last modified: 05-14-2009 10:02 PM by mickiel.)
Post: #6
RE: Whats really on Gods Mind?
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05-14-2009, 10:45 PM
Post: #7
RE: Whats really on Gods Mind?
Which parts have been left intact? How can you judge? Because it seems to me that if there's no clear criteria for which parts are true and which parts are fake, well, the bits about God could very well be fake.
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05-14-2009, 11:34 PM
Post: #8
RE: Whats really on Gods Mind?
(05-14-2009 10:45 PM)GTseng3 Wrote:  Which parts have been left intact? How can you judge? Because it seems to me that if there's no clear criteria for which parts are true and which parts are fake, well, the bits about God could very well be fake.



Well they could be, yes, so it falls to study and belief of and in your own understanding. I mean howelse could it be? And it falls to God himself to just have to help the individual to understand and believe, or we are just on our own. I think your right, goodness, any or all of the bible could be fake, no doubt about that observation.

The core of it all is belief, without the help of an ancient polaroid camera, we are reduced to belief and whatever proof a curious mind should rightly have in order to come to conclusions. Well Archaeology is the only camera we have to the past, and if it can be shown that Jesus is indeed a real historical figure, then that brings relevance to belief.

Well I have researched Archaeological finds, and there is enough unearthed evidence that, if peiced together correctly, unbiased, leads to obvious conclusion. The Archaeology that confirms the bible as a historical docuement is extensive, but thats another subject, but a relevant one. For example, in short explination, they have found the actual house of Mary and Martha, Jesus stayed there on occassion, Matt. 21:17, 26:6, John 12:1-2. I mean they got this very house right now. They have unearthed the tomb of Lazarus, from which Jesus raised him from the dead, John 11:1-44. They got this tomb man.

The place of the Skull, Golgotha, where Jesus was crucified, Mark 15:22, 27, 1Pet.2:24, the bible records this place, well they have found this place, they have it now. This, in my view, gives the bible historical relevence. They got the tomb of Joseph man, they have it, for all to see. I could go on and on with what they have unearthed, but I am not trying to convince you, I hold no intrest in convincing anyone but myself. I mean, belief is personal, these things are for me, proof for me, others will do what they are into doing and believing.

The bible is the only book that has spoken to me, its real value, its arcane predictions, the way it counsels, the impact it has had on my curious mind, is of no doubt to me. But I understand the way things are, its just for me, and where I am.

I know how I am. I don't accept that something, once exploded from nothing, and matter came to be.. No no man, that is not real to me. I do not accept that something once came from nothing, then over time, that nothing developed into something, then evolved into some water on a planet, then crawled onto the surface and eventually became a human. All of the energy that atheist have in their disbelief of God, I hold that same energy in my disbelif of evolution. I just can't get to that man, its not for me.

We came from something far more powerful than we. And I agree with the biblical explination, I accept it as the only rational explination, but then again, I have to grab hold of what works for me. I understand it is not for everyone to believe.

Peace.
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05-15-2009, 12:25 AM
Post: #9
RE: Whats really on Gods Mind?
Why would the existence of Jesus bring relevance? Muslims acknowledge his existence. Most Jews acknowledge his existence. They simply do not acknowledge his special status as God. I have no problem with Jesus existing (though the evidence for that is far thinner than most Christians will admit,) because it changes nothing. History is full of messiah figures who have actually existed, they simply weren't actually holy. It's like saying that because George Washington exists, he must have chopped down the cherry tree. No, the man is a real historical figure. The cherry tree story is fabrication to make him seem larger than life.

And just a word about those archeological discoveries - every one of them is disputed. Heavily. Every single one. It's traditional that they are located there, but that tradition did not come into being until centuries after the supposed events.

On the other hand, we've seen "something" explode from "nothing" - starbirth is a witnessed interstellar event, we have some amazing Hubble telescope pictures of it in various stages of progress. Now that's not actually something from nothing, true, but then neither are any theories about the beginning of the universe. There's always something there, something that precedes it, even if it's just a singularity. But then, that's no problem to believe in. After all, you believe in a God that came from nothing, or always was, or something like that. I simply take God out of the picture and say the universe is the real eternal thing.

As for biological evolution - not only does the fossil record support it, but we've observed it. Experiments in hybridization has made entirely new species, incompatible with previous species. Here's the big thing - evolution doesn't require anything special. The new species created in the lab is all the genetic drift that is necessary. We've proven that it is possible. True, we don't have an "ancient Polaroid" to prove that's how it happens, but the evidence is extremely clear. None of this is unbelievable, on the contrary, we've actually observed it happening, so we can speculate that it has happened in the past. On the other hand, we've never observed God doing anything. Including existing.

In other words, evolution is far easier to believe in than God. The science is all there.

Now, I come from where you are. I was raised, as a child, in an intensely fundamentalist Christian environment. I was taught about Ken Ham, and creationism, and shown the "scientific evidence" that the Bible was true. Regrettably, it was all lies, lies I discovered later on. Despite what Ben Stein would like to believe, the true reason that creationists aren't given credence in the scientific community is because they don't deserve it. Their evidence is utterly faulty, their logic is deeply flawed. They make no attempt to explain the evidence we have, they simply deny that the evidence exists, like an ostrich sticking its head in the sand.

But don't take my word for it. Look around. There have been several very clear books written about the subject, some actually aimed to creationists, explaining very clearly the science, and the scientific discoveries that proved the science is possible. It's nice to believe you're part of something bigger than yourself, but you should never let that nice feeling delude you.
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05-15-2009, 01:34 AM
Post: #10
RE: Whats really on Gods Mind?
Well you make valid points, most of which I agree with. Even still, I see absolutely no logic whatsoever in accepting that something can eminate from nothing, its just impossible. Its surreal, illogical, and I think unmathical to try and figure something can be born from nothing. No matter how far we go back, you simply cannot trace matter to have began from anti-matter, that is absurd reasoning. And then to go further, to assume something as complex as life, can then evolutionize itself into the complexity we now see life as being, is like saying that a rock can create itself, fall from nowhere, then hit the ground of another nowhere that grew itself, and then formed itself into an automobile that is complex enough to be driven by a being that grew itself into a thinking being that knew how to drive it.

I accept all that science and Archaeology has shown, humans have been here far longer than christianity has admitted. And I think that can be explained, but not by christian traditional belief. I think archaeology and science explains that better. Not to subtract from what you believe, there is more to life than Archaeology and science can explain, or religion. All three fall short to what is the real explination as to how we exist. But all three together are all we have to glean from.

Thats why I said it falls to God to explain our existence. Its his responsibility to uncover what we simply do not know and understand.

Well now, for your benefit, lets just subtract God from the picture. Now, you explain to me how we got here. Explain to me why I should believe you. Provide the evidence for your claims. See how far you get in convincing me. Its a never ending story, you could no more convince me, than I could you.

So its not about convincing, thats ultimately a waste of time. It falls to belief. Its what we believe, and belief cannot be proven to the human mind, only accepted by that mind. After acceptance, comes belief. I willnot believe in anything I cannot accept, which is why I do not believe in eternal punishment, I will NEVER accept that God would do such a thing.

Creation is far easier for me to accept, than other alternitives, because I am rational in my own mind, not yours. There is a missing link to all of this, which would make things much clearer, and I think only God can explain that clearly. Well God has not, he has not been clear to humanity, which I think is why there is confusion. Again, its the creators responsibility to make things clear, not the creation. None of us asked to be here, thus, none of us are responsible in finding the answers.

Peace.
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