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Which son did God ask Abraham to sacrifice - Isaac or Ishmael ?
02-16-2018, 09:54 AM (This post was last modified: 02-16-2018 09:54 AM by Odhran.)
Post: #201
RE: Which son did God ask Abraham to sacrifice - Isaac or Ishmael ?
(02-15-2018 04:23 AM)JerryMyers Wrote:  Christians see the cross as a symbol of Jesus sacrificing his life for the sin of man - I don’t - not only because I believe Jesus was not killed nor crucified, but also because, in the whole Bible you are not going to find Jesus, in his own words, said he came to die for the sins of all mankind.

Well sure, but the question is not the symbol of crucifixion nor what that symbol means for you.

(02-15-2018 04:23 AM)JerryMyers Wrote:  Absolutely. The value of symbols is in what the symbols represent to the believers of that faith. Muslims see value in their symbols and Christians see value in theirs.

For an example, let's say we have a person whom believes their baptism symbol is "a parole from sin", for whatever reason. Isn't baptism, then, to that person "a parole from sin", because it is symbolic in nature??

Now for thee and for me, that symbol is not of that nature, perhaps. But clearly we can see those who use it as a symbol for that particular thing.
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02-16-2018, 11:18 AM
Post: #202
RE: Which son did God ask Abraham to sacrifice - Isaac or Ishmael ?
(02-16-2018 09:54 AM)Odhran Wrote:  
(02-15-2018 04:23 AM)JerryMyers Wrote:  Christians see the cross as a symbol of Jesus sacrificing his life for the sin of man - I don’t - not only because I believe Jesus was not killed nor crucified, but also because, in the whole Bible you are not going to find Jesus, in his own words, said he came to die for the sins of all mankind.

Well sure, but the question is not the symbol of crucifixion nor what that symbol means for you.

(02-15-2018 04:23 AM)JerryMyers Wrote:  Absolutely. The value of symbols is in what the symbols represent to the believers of that faith. Muslims see value in their symbols and Christians see value in theirs.

For an example, let's say we have a person whom believes their baptism symbol is "a parole from sin", for whatever reason. Isn't baptism, then, to that person "a parole from sin", because it is symbolic in nature??

Now for thee and for me, that symbol is not of that nature, perhaps. But clearly we can see those who use it as a symbol for that particular thing.


Of course, you are right, the symbolic reference of baptism is not what it meant to me but, it’s what it meant to the Christians today. However, my argument is not just on what the symbolic baptism represents to the Christians today, but what it represented in the times of Jesus Christ and what baptism represents to the Christians today is totally different from what it used to represent in the times of Jesus. So the question is - why are the Christians today following someone else understanding of baptism and not practising the baptism as preached and practised by Jesus and John the Baptist ?
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02-16-2018, 12:29 PM
Post: #203
RE: Which son did God ask Abraham to sacrifice - Isaac or Ishmael ?
(02-16-2018 07:26 AM)JerryMyers Wrote:  I cannot understand the baptism as practised by the Christians today.

And you’re not expected to, unless you later become a Christian. There’s a lot about Islam that I don’t understand. This makes me reluctant to condemn it, although I’ve criticized some of its features which I see as potential weaknesses. Condemnation of foreign faiths has long been out of hand, out of proportion to the importance theology should hold in our world. In Myanmar, the officially Buddhist government has killed some of the Rohingya Muslims to force the rest to flee to Bangladesh—no doubt so that politically connected Buddhists can take the property they left behind.

That but only the latest in a long series of religious slaughter, with Armenians in Turkey and Catholics against Protestants in Northern Ireland. I value the US constitution’s separation of church and state for reducing the ferocity of such pogroms here, although we had the Mormon saga and Missouri Gov. Boggs’s “extermination order” of 1838.

(02-16-2018 07:26 AM)JerryMyers Wrote:  Baptism does not guarantee you that the ‘Spirit of God’ will be in you.

True. One must repent (Acts 2:38) and pray (Acts 4:31, 8:15) both for self and others in addition to being baptized. Otherwise the rite of baptism isn’t serious. Repentance involves more than a mumbled “sorry.” It means taking a moral inventory of ourselves, to identify where we’ve gone wrong. It means confessing our sins in private to someone we can trust. It means making amends and restitution, as appropriate, to those we’ve wronged. Then we continue the cycle of inventory and amends as we seek a prayer life, asking God to help us avoid further sin. The Alcoholics Anonymous movement got the idea right in its 12 steps without even invoking Christ or Holy Ghost.

(02-16-2018 07:26 AM)JerryMyers Wrote:  If it’s true that Paul believe that ONLY God can forgive sin, then, logically he cannot believe Jesus is God.
(02-16-2018 11:18 AM)JerryMyers Wrote:  What baptism represents to the Christians today is totally different from what it used to represent in the times of Jesus. So the question is - why are the Christians today following someone else understanding of baptism and not practising the baptism as preached and practised by Jesus and John the Baptist?

John the Baptist declared himself unworthy to untie Jesus’s sandals (Mark 1:7). Jesus advised baptism in the name of Father, Son and Holy Ghost to “make disciples of all nations” according to Matthew (28:19).

Christians, contrary to popular belief, do not worship or pray to Jesus. We pray to the Father, as Jesus taught in the Lord’s Prayer. We do things, including baptisms, in Jesus’s name, as we consider ourselves ambassadors for Christ. Although Christ (if transitive reasoning holds sound in theology), as the Word, is God, we don’t pray to the Word; instead we’re supposed to practice the Word in our daily lives (James 2:26). That God is a word is also attested in Psalm 33:6 and Luke 1:2, although without John the gospelist’s paean. For we humans think, communicate, and live by words.

Paul never directly called Jesus “God.” The closest statement is in John’s gospel, where “the Word was God” (1:1), and then “the Word became flesh and lived among us...we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth” (1:14). Do we worship the physical man Jesus once was? No. Observe the little words “as of” in the verse. “No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known” (1:18). This aspect of the Johannine Christ, despite sharp differences from Paul, is central to our religion.

While the Father forgives sin, Jesus has the power to intercede between Amem’s naked buff with its sin guilt and God, and cover those sins so God won’t see them judgmentally, but extend grace, if I walk in the faith. The Holy Ghost has the power to keep my hot little hands from rifling that lady’s purse when she’s not looking. That’s a thing I used to do. Today I don’t. I do things for other people. Not much, but something, every day, if I can, even if it’s just opening a door so a wheelchair user can pass the entrance faster than if alone, or the dishes after the homeless luncheon. We all need other people.

(02-16-2018 07:26 AM)JerryMyers Wrote:  What sex practices of Abraham are you referring to? Well, that’s alright and we don't have to go 'back and forth' on this, as we came from God and to Him shall we all return.

Good, because I’m almost out of Abe material unless I turn to the developing myth of US President Abraham Lincoln, born in a Kentucky log cabin in 1809 and assassinated right after the Civil War, who’s reentered politics as a topic in the wake of racial unrest at Ferguson, Missouri (2014) and other cities (2014-17), with the rise of Black Lives Matter (founded 2012 by Opal Tometi and colleagues). His pro-black sympathies are greatly exaggerated today even if it’s true he opposed slavery. If the USA survives 4000 years, Lincoln may gain nearly the same status the original Abraham has in Judaism.
~ Wink
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02-17-2018, 12:48 PM
Post: #204
RE: Which son did God ask Abraham to sacrifice - Isaac or Ishmael ?
(02-16-2018 12:29 PM)Amememhab Wrote:  
(02-16-2018 07:26 AM)JerryMyers Wrote:  I cannot understand the baptism as practised by the Christians today.

And you’re not expected to, unless you later become a Christian. There’s a lot about Islam that I don’t understand. This makes me reluctant to condemn it, although I’ve criticized some of its features which I see as potential weaknesses. Condemnation of foreign faiths has long been out of hand, out of proportion to the importance theology should hold in our world. In Myanmar, the officially Buddhist government has killed some of the Rohingya Muslims to force the rest to flee to Bangladesh—no doubt so that politically connected Buddhists can take the property they left behind.


I said “I cannot understand the baptism AS PRACTISED by the Christians today” which means I do know what baptism IS to the Christians today BUT I do not understand why the Christians today practise a baptism which would be alien to Jesus, the man they claim to follow.

(02-16-2018 12:29 PM)Amememhab Wrote:  
(02-16-2018 07:26 AM)JerryMyers Wrote:  Baptism does not guarantee you that the ‘Spirit of God’ will be in you.

True. One must repent (Acts 2:38) and pray (Acts 4:31, 8:15) both for self and others in addition to being baptized. Otherwise the rite of baptism isn’t serious. Repentance involves more than a mumbled “sorry.” It means taking a moral inventory of ourselves, to identify where we’ve gone wrong. It means confessing our sins in private to someone we can trust. It means making amends and restitution, as appropriate, to those we’ve wronged. Then we continue the cycle of inventory and amends as we seek a prayer life, asking God to help us avoid further sin. The Alcoholics Anonymous movement got the idea right in its 12 steps without even invoking Christ or Holy Ghost.


The baptism you practise today is not about repentance to God, its about Jesus, and Acts 2:38, Acts 4:31, 8:15 you mentioned are not about baptism as you practise today, are they ??

(02-16-2018 12:29 PM)Amememhab Wrote:  
(02-16-2018 07:26 AM)JerryMyers Wrote:  If it’s true that Paul believe that ONLY God can forgive sin, then, logically he cannot believe Jesus is God.
(02-16-2018 11:18 AM)JerryMyers Wrote:  What baptism represents to the Christians today is totally different from what it used to represent in the times of Jesus. So the question is - why are the Christians today following someone else understanding of baptism and not practising the baptism as preached and practised by Jesus and John the Baptist?

John the Baptist declared himself unworthy to untie Jesus’s sandals (Mark 1:7). Jesus advised baptism in the name of Father, Son and Holy Ghost to “make disciples of all nations” according to Matthew (28:19).


John the Baptist in declaring himself not worthy to untie Jesus’ sandals does NOT make Jesus a God, if that’s what you are suggesting – it just means John the Baptist was expressing the great veneration he had for Jesus.

As for Matthew 28:19, there’s a dispute even among the Christian scholars as ‘in the name of the father, Son and Holy Ghost’ was said to be fabricated. The correct reading of Matthew 28:19 was said to be in Luke 24:47 – “and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem”. The phrase “repentance for the forgiveness of sins” is what baptism represents in the days of Jesus, which will be preached in his name – not together with the name of the Father/God and in the name of the Holy Ghost, just "in his name". The phrase “in his name” simply means by what Jesus had declared and that is, the repentance of sins will be preached. Jesus never declared remission of sins will be preached by his death, now did he ??


(02-16-2018 12:29 PM)Amememhab Wrote:  Christians, contrary to popular belief, do not worship or pray to Jesus. We pray to the Father, as Jesus taught in the Lord’s Prayer. We do things, including baptisms, in Jesus’s name, as we consider ourselves ambassadors for Christ.

Well, the Lord’s Prayer teach you to pray to God. In the Lord’s Prayer, Jesus never asked you to believe that his ‘death’ will pay for your sins but instead he told you to ask for forgiveness from God – so, who told you Jesus must die for your sins ??

As for baptism, we already know baptism today is not what baptism was in Jesus’ times and as for “in Jesus’ name”, what do you understand by the phrase “in Jesus’ name” ?

(02-16-2018 12:29 PM)Amememhab Wrote:  Although Christ (if transitive reasoning holds sound in theology), as the Word, is God, we don’t pray to the Word; instead we’re supposed to practice the Word in our daily lives (James 2:26). That God is a word is also attested in Psalm 33:6 and Luke 1:2, although without John the gospelist’s paean. For we humans think, communicate, and live by words.

We communicate by words, but we don’t think and live by words. We think in pictures or images – for example, if I said to you ‘cat’, do you see ‘C-A-T’ in your mind or do you see an image of a cat in your mind ?

And Psalm 33:6 DID NOT attest God is a word. “By the word of the Lord” simply means by the command of the Lord. Similarly, “servants of the word” – Luke 1:2 simply means servants of the command, for instance, if a King commanded you to bow down to him and you did just that, then you can be said to be the servant of that command, eventho' you might not be truly a servant of the King.


(02-16-2018 12:29 PM)Amememhab Wrote:  Paul never directly called Jesus “God.” The closest statement is in John’s gospel, where “the Word was God” (1:1), and then “the Word became flesh and lived among us...we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth” (1:14). Do we worship the physical man Jesus once was? No. Observe the little words “as of” in the verse. “No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known” (1:18). This aspect of the Johannine Christ, despite sharp differences from Paul, is central to our religion.


Are you saying Jesus is God because “the Word was God” ??


(02-16-2018 12:29 PM)Amememhab Wrote:  While the Father forgives sin, Jesus has the power to intercede between Amem’s naked buff with its sin guilt and God, and cover those sins so God won’t see them judgmentally, but extend grace, if I walk in the faith. The Holy Ghost has the power to keep my hot little hands from rifling that lady’s purse when she’s not looking. That’s a thing I used to do. Today I don’t. I do things for other people. Not much, but something, every day, if I can, even if it’s just opening a door so a wheelchair user can pass the entrance faster than if alone, or the dishes after the homeless luncheon. We all need other people.

Well, I can tell you this for a fact – Jesus can do nothing on his own, so Jesus cannot “cover those sins so God won’t see them judgmentally” – Jesus or anyone can hide anything from God and who IS ‘the Holy Ghost’ – is he a person ??

(02-16-2018 12:29 PM)Amememhab Wrote:  
(02-16-2018 07:26 AM)JerryMyers Wrote:  What sex practices of Abraham are you referring to? Well, that’s alright and we don't have to go 'back and forth' on this, as we came from God and to Him shall we all return.

Good, because I’m almost out of Abe material......


As I said, that’s alright and we don’t have to go ‘back and forth’ on this as we came from God and to Him shall we all return and there He will tell us on what we differ.
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02-17-2018, 01:41 PM (This post was last modified: Yesterday 01:18 PM by Visqueen.)
Post: #205
RE: Which son did God ask Abraham to sacrifice - Isaac or Ishmael ?
Hi, my name is burke and I'm a pathetic human being with nothing to do and because I have so much time on my hands all I can think to do is troll and spam a tiny little site on the net. I am to be pitied because I am such a waste of time, the space I take up both physically and here on this site, and the oxygen I breathe, hence depriving others actually worthy of making better use of that oxygen. I am a very sad small person with no power and I will apparently keep doing this because I am powerless in my actual life. I am a very pitiful creature, no doubt plagued by serious mental health issues which are not being addressed properly and I lash out the only way I can for free - spamming this small site.
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Today, 02:33 AM (This post was last modified: Today 02:34 AM by Satyros.)
Post: #206
RE: Which son did God ask Abraham to sacrifice - Isaac or Ishmael ?
(02-08-2018 09:12 AM)muhammad_isa Wrote:  No .. it shows that Abraham, peace be with him, was a fiery young man, a human being,

Plenty of "fiery men" fear things. There is no other reason to destroy something of such religious significance other than that one fears it.

His ridiculousness of asking the "chief idol" - as well as the assumption that it's the idols that are worshipped - also shows his complete lack of knowledge and wisdom regarding idols and their spiritual function; a function that has remained the same for centuries.

Given the hosting text, however, I'm more inclined to believe that - as with Elijah and his ridiculous "contest" against Ba'al - it's primary purpose is propogandic ridicule of other beliefs.

Кровь за Кровь, Во Славу Великим!
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Today, 07:00 AM (This post was last modified: Today 07:00 AM by muhammad_isa.)
Post: #207
RE: Which son did God ask Abraham to sacrifice - Isaac or Ishmael ?
(Today 02:33 AM)Satyros Wrote:  .. it's primary purpose is propogandic ridicule of other beliefs.

There is only ONE God .. the Creator and Maintainer of the univese.
What is the connection between God and worshipped pieces of carved stone?

He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: He leadeth me beside the still waters.
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