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Why?
05-21-2011, 09:15 AM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2011 09:21 AM by kevlar.)
Post: #1
Why?
For the purpose of this thread I will assume that an infinite, omnipotent creator of all exists and that "he" is called god.
Without reference to or quotations from your holy books, with just the intellect that this god created you with, can you answer some why's?
Why would god give you free will for you to chose automatism in the afterlife?
Why would god give you free will only to punish you for exercising it?
Why would god care about you more than any other of his creations?
Why would god destroy every living thing (with a few exceptions) he created on this planet?
Why would god torture and kill his son to redeem his creatures from his punishment?
Why would god create a universe so immense that we can't fathom it just for you?
Why would god create so many conflicting ways to worship him, when worshiping him is the reason for your existence?
Why would god hide himself if all he wants is for you to worship and obey him?
Why would god create a place of eternal punishment for mistakes made in a temporal life?

There are lots more of course, but you will already feel overwhelmed, so I might bring some more later.

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05-21-2011, 03:16 PM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2011 04:16 PM by Vagrant Storm.)
Post: #2
RE: Why?
If you block access to a religous person's holy text you block out all possibility of answers. People who are a member of a religion can't think for themselves (on the subject of religion). They can only think what they have been told to think. So i am predeicting you won't get a lot of answers so i will try and help.

As some one who used to be Christain...I pretty much asked these same questions. I can share some of the opinions I recieved.

Quote:Why would god give you free will for you to chose automatism in the afterlife?
Why would god give you free will only to punish you for exercising it?
I was told to "test" you. Sort of like if you saw bag of money fall off of a armored car. You could do the right thing and return it or keep it. It is a way to weed out the weak links. Without free will there would be nothing to separate those who go to heaven and those who go to hell. I don't blieve this since it would be the same as purposely drilling a hole in a bucket and then disapproving of all the water that leaked out. I am more beliving that a god would give free will as form of entertainment for "himself"

Quote:Why would god care about you more than any other of his creations?
This can't be answered without quoting a holy text. Real answer: because we are ontop of the food chain and animals taste good. We don't want peple thinking god cares about our dinner.

Quote:Why would god destroy every living thing (with a few exceptions) he created on this planet?
Why would god torture and kill his son to redeem his creatures from his punishment?
This can't be answered without quoting a holy text either. At all. You are asking about Bible stories that cannot be proven.

Quote:Why would god create a universe so immense that we can't fathom it just for you?
Because god will provide these answers when he wants us to know them. Real answer: with education comes logical thought. With logical thought comes questioning. With questioning comes realization. With realization comes seeing through the farce that is religion.

Quote:Why would god create so many conflicting ways to worship him, when worshiping him is the reason for your existence?
Ties back to free will. Appearently only those that chose to worship the correct way get saved. The really stupid thing is that humans kill each other over muslim and christain differences when they both worship the same god originally made by the Jews.

Quote:Why would god hide himself if all he wants is for you to worship and obey him?
God shows him self every day in everything that happens. Though the pastor will get quiet and unresponsive if you ask about all the atrocities that happen every second on this planet.

Quote:Why would god create a place of eternal punishment for mistakes made in a temporal life?
You know...I never asked this and this is damn good question. An ETERNITY of judgement for actions during an average of 72 orbits of a planet around a star? of which only 54 we are truely responsible for. It sure scares people into putting money on the offering plate though.
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05-21-2011, 04:27 PM
Post: #3
RE: Why?
(05-21-2011 03:16 PM)Vagrant Storm Wrote:  People who are a member of a religion can't think for themselves (on the subject of religion).

Wow. What a massively generalised tar-brush of a statement. I'm assuming that by comparison you CAN think for yourself and that your world-view isn't influenced or informed by cultural and social indoctrination, right?
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05-21-2011, 04:35 PM
Post: #4
RE: Why?
Quote:If you block access to a religous person's holy text you block out all possibility of answers. People who are a member of a religion can't think for themselves (on the subject of religion). They can only think what they have been told to think.

As a theist, this is absolute bull and insulting.
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05-21-2011, 04:42 PM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2011 05:17 PM by Vagrant Storm.)
Post: #5
RE: Why?
Don't derail the thread due to my stupidity...I only meant that if a member of an organized religion needs answers on their religion they go to their religious texts to find the answer. If they do not, then they are not following the prescriptions of the religion and thus can no longer be considered a member. You can't just make up stuff as you go. There is a little room for interpetation, but it isn't like any religion is new. Everything has been interpeted already and the different interpetations are different religions. My opinion clouded my post...i am new here. I see I need to be more careful. I meant no personal disrepect.

Could a person consider them selves a christian, but not believe that their god created the earth? Could they be a christian and not believe that Jesus died for their sins? Each religion is a club. Once you no longer follow the rules you lose your membership. Maybe i just grew up with a more strict environment. That is my main beef with any organized religion. There is a "rule book" that you have to follow.

Hey I tried to answer the OP...if you can think ABOUT RELIGION without your holy texts lets see you answer them.

I don't want to derail more so I am editting here:

All religions != Christianity...which is what the OP is asking about. It doesn't matter if a group of chicken worshipers some where let you choose your favorite chicken. We are talking chritianity and each form of christianity has a set of beliefs you must follow. Sure, I am going to assume there are some obsure branches of christianity that consist of one church with about 30 members each that might not follow that, but those branches are not the topic. These questions would only apply to a mainstream religion. Religions that you can find out about in the yellow pages or see in the media.
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05-21-2011, 04:54 PM
Post: #6
RE: Why?
Quote:Each religion is a club. Once you no longer follow the rules you lose your membership.

That doesn't mean however, that they would be unable to answer from their own minds without referring to a holy text. Many people believe a religion because it reflects what they believe.

Quote:There is a "rule book" that you have to follow.

Abrahamic religions =/= all religions

Quote:Could they be a christian and not believe that Jesus died for their sins?

Sure, many early Christian sects did not accept the blood atonement theology, or even his physical death, including the Cerinthians, Basilidians, Carpocratians and others.
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05-22-2011, 02:59 PM (This post was last modified: 05-22-2011 03:27 PM by EqualAtheist.)
Post: #7
RE: Why?
Gonna reply to this first and then get back to the questions that Kev asked.



(05-21-2011 04:42 PM)Vagrant Storm Wrote:  Could a person consider them selves a christian, but not believe that their god created the earth?

Yes

(05-21-2011 04:42 PM)Vagrant Storm Wrote:  Could they be a christian and not believe that Jesus died for their sins?

Yes.


(05-21-2011 04:42 PM)Vagrant Storm Wrote:  Each religion is a club. Once you no longer follow the rules you lose your membership.

Incorrect. Example. You had Christians...mainly Catholic. Some stopped following the rules and you now have a whole bunch of different types of Christians. With the possibitly of all new sorts. Which gets to the points above. What I was refering to up there are a group called Atheist Christians. Christians that do not believe in God, but believe in all the lessons of the bible, minus the magic. They live by a moral code, passed down by the bible, and dismiss the Magic, and such.

(05-21-2011 04:42 PM)Vagrant Storm Wrote:  Maybe i just grew up with a more strict environment. That is my main beef with any organized religion. There is a "rule book" that you have to follow.

I am not so sure, seems that part of the reason for the books, are to show that you do not have to follow the rules, just lists punishments for choosing not to....thus kinda taking away real free will, but thats another discussion.


(05-21-2011 09:15 AM)kevlar Wrote:  For the purpose of this thread I will assume that an infinite, omnipotent creator of all exists and that "he" is called god.
Without reference to or quotations from your holy books, with just the intellect that this god created you with, can you answer some why's?

As EqualTheist, I will give it a try.


(05-21-2011 09:15 AM)kevlar Wrote:  Why would god give you free will for you to chose automatism in the afterlife?
Because some of us would prefer it that way. Plus, it might not be automantism, it might just be how God knows everyone will be, once in heaven. Or it could be, that the ideas of heaven that are usually thought about, are not the actual heaven.
(05-21-2011 09:15 AM)kevlar Wrote:  Why would god give you free will only to punish you for exercising it?
Perhaps there is no punishment. However, how would you get people to do what you consider to be good, without the fear of punishment. Like telling a child you will send them away if they do not eat all their food, knowing that if they do not eat it all, they will not be sent away.
(05-21-2011 09:15 AM)kevlar Wrote:  Why would god care about you more than any other of his creations?
I would not think that he does. I think perhaps the people wanting control, or wanting to eat flesh, wanted to justify their wants, by claiming that it was Gods will. I as the EqualTheist, do not believe God holds mankind as more important, or cares about us more, then any of his other creations. Including the ones on the other planets that we do not know about.
(05-21-2011 09:15 AM)kevlar Wrote:  Why would god destroy every living thing (with a few exceptions) he created on this planet?
To start fresh. Like trying to create a face on an etch-e-sketch and then shaking it up to start again.
(05-21-2011 09:15 AM)kevlar Wrote:  Why would god torture and kill his son to redeem his creatures from his punishment?
Not sure that whole story is true. I would assume, from what I have been told, it was so that God, could get mankind closer to him. I know that it makes no sense, but does anything God does have to make sense to us. I mean the creator of the universe, does not have to explain himself to us, and I do not think he has tried. I think he has simply tried to give us a guideline.
(05-21-2011 09:15 AM)kevlar Wrote:  Why would god create a universe so immense that we can't fathom it just for you?
It was not for us. It was for him. We just are lucky to be gifted by him. Seems silly no matter how you look at it, to think God did it just for us.
(05-21-2011 09:15 AM)kevlar Wrote:  Why would god create so many conflicting ways to worship him, when worshiping him is the reason for your existence?
In his wisdom, he knows that not everyone is going to accept him. He also knows that, out of those that do, not all will accept him the same way. Since he is unlimited, he saw no reason to put so much of a limit on how he would be worshipped.
(05-21-2011 09:15 AM)kevlar Wrote:  Why would god hide himself if all he wants is for you to worship and obey him?
It is silly to think that is all he wanted. What he wants, he does himself. He just gives us the chance to be near him. We can take it or leave it. Makes no difference to him.
(05-21-2011 09:15 AM)kevlar Wrote:  Why would god create a place of eternal punishment for mistakes made in a temporal life?
Do not believe he did, and would make no sense for him to do so. I think that is the religious means of control. Not something a simple theist would believe.

(05-21-2011 09:15 AM)kevlar Wrote:  There are lots more of course, but you will already feel overwhelmed, so I might bring some more later.

I could keep going, but I prefer to be myself from here on out. Unless asked to be the other me in reference to the questions above.

If everyone was thinking the same thing, then no one would be thinking at all.
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05-23-2011, 06:28 AM
Post: #8
RE: Why?
Three atheists, two agnostics, and a Celtic Revisionist argue about the finer points of Christian theology. It's a good set-up, but I can't imagine what the punchline will be Tongue

Join Atheism Today! Be sure to ask about our sexy parties. Big Grin
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05-23-2011, 08:32 AM
Post: #9
RE: Why?
Who woulda thunkit Jr? Tongue

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05-23-2011, 02:28 PM
Post: #10
RE: Why?
Quote: Three atheists, two agnostics, and a Celtic Revisionist argue about the finer points of Christian theology. It's a good set-up, but I can't imagine what the punchline will be Tongue

Reconstructionist Tongue
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