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Why?
04-14-2009, 08:28 AM
Post: #1
Why?
Why do they have places of worship?

Why do these places cost so much?

Why is not the natural world enough?

Why does religion have defined leaders?

Why do they have golden ornaments, pictures, and writting?

Why do they preach?

Why do they have money?

Why is the truth hidden?

Why is there poverty?

Why is the world as it is?
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04-14-2009, 11:27 AM (This post was last modified: 04-14-2009 11:27 AM by GTseng3.)
Post: #2
RE: Why?
(04-14-2009 08:28 AM)George Wrote:  Why do they have places of worship?

The essence of most religions requires the necessity to teach. Man is not naturally religious. He is naturally curious, but to actually join a systematic cult based on "belief" is something that must be trained into us. This requires a central location.

Quote:Why do these places cost so much?

Many religions no doubt started as benevolent (though many did not,) but if you give someone the means by which to control a large number of people, they will abuse that power. Religious centers are big business, and make quite a lot of money.

Quote:Why is not the natural world enough?

Because that would require you to accept the natural world and think for yourself. Thinking for yourself is hard.

Quote:Why does religion have defined leaders?

Again, you get a group of people who slavishly follow a spiritual organization, someone will rise up to take advantage of it.

Quote:Why do they have golden ornaments, pictures, and writting?

The writing usually comes first. They start from a codified set of writings, usually written by ancient cultures trying to figure out what made the universe tick, and extrapolating from that. Those writings are then lifted from their historic context, and said to be ultimate truth. At some point someone greedy will take hold of the religion, and the church begins to be bedecked with gold and art.

Quote:Why do they preach?

I have known a number of sincere religious leaders, who preach because they are as misled as their flock. Most, though, preach because they want the control over others. They speak of principles of behavior that will create a neatly ordered society under them.

Quote:Why do they have money?

Once you have that group of people listening to your every word, it's very hard to resist the temptation to abuse your power and take money.
Quote:Why is the truth hidden?

Truth has always been there, but it wasn't placed there by a deity. "Truth" is simply understanding how the universe works. Because there is no God, there is no obligation to make truth easy for us to discover (indeed, truth is very complicated and many aspects of physical truth can only be understood with modern science. Many more have yet to be understood.) So as we grow, scientifically, morally, ethically, and as a civilization, we will discover more and more of the truth. We will come closer and closer to the real truth, and we will sweep away some of our misconceptions about the truth. This is the true difference between an atheist and a theist. A theist has a code, and says that code is truth. An atheist seeks the truth, and changes his code to alter what he discovers in a constant process. But you have these huge religious organizations whose livelihoods are based on ancient codes that at this point are horribly outdated and securely mired in fiction. So they will go to any lengths to hide the truth, because the truth threatens their power.

Quote:Why is there poverty?

Now we're talking economics. And it is economics. It's wonderful to think that maybe some day we can eradicate poverty, but the socialist state simply fails. Every single time. Small communities of voluntary citizens can sometimes be socialist, but governments cannot be. So we are left with the capitalist system, which is a very good system, but it is not a very kind system. Humanity, as a whole, is stronger, better, and more responsive under capitalism. But certain individuals are left helplessly out in the cold. This is not to be just passed over, it is horrible, and the more people who voluntarily give of themselves to help these folk out the better. But it's human nature that there will always be more impoverished then there are generous people.

Quote:Why is the world as it is?

Now that's a complex issue. The world is what it is based on a number of factors. The first is evolutionary. Sentience evolved in this universe in the form of man, with all his majesty, and all his flaws. Man is inherently a social creature because of his evolution. He has animal instincts that cause him to be basically selfish despite this. He has reason and intellect that allow him to overcome his darker instincts, but few do. There is also social structure. This continues to change, getting better and better. While evolution is out of our control, social change is squarely in our control. Regrettably there have been many periods in human history when social change has stuttered, but the general trend has always been toward better, more complex, and more ethical societies. At a certain point Man grew to the point where we are the single greatest force shaping this earth. From that point on, we have made the world as it is.

Many things about this world are wonderful. Many things are terrible. Luckily the trend has been to reduce the terrible and revel in the wonderful. Eventually we will get to the point where the sort of backwards thinking that produces oppression, tyrrany, pointless war, and hatred is reduced to be almost nonexistent (not truly nonexistent, because one thing about us is our ability to think for ourselves, for better or for worse, but no longer institutionalized in our governments.)
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04-14-2009, 09:50 PM (This post was last modified: 04-14-2009 09:51 PM by George.)
Post: #3
RE: Why?
Very good & interesting answers. But:

Quote:The essence of most religions requires the necessity to teach. Man is not naturally religious. He is naturally curious, but to actually join a systematic cult based on "belief" is something that must be trained into us. This requires a central location.

Could that location not be anywhere?

Quote:Because there is no God, there is no obligation to make truth easy for us to discover (indeed, truth is very complicated and many aspects of physical truth can only be understood with modern science.

This sentence is very good, but there are many different definitions of the word 'god' you will make people look away from you.

Can you see the reason you should not judge?
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04-14-2009, 10:18 PM
Post: #4
RE: Why?
How would you have said that, then?
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04-14-2009, 10:24 PM
Post: #5
RE: Why?
Indeed, truth is very complicated and many aspects of physical truth can be understood with modern science.
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04-14-2009, 10:30 PM
Post: #6
RE: Why?
It's important to the point that we are in a wholly natural universe, though. If there was a God, then if he/she/it is benevolent then there is an obligation to allow us to find the truth, at least enough of the truth to save our souls. If there is no God, on the other hand, then there is no obligation to show us the truth, because there is no one who created the truth to be obliged to us. So we would expect the truth to be difficult to sous out, and to not be fair (namely to all those who lived before the advent of modern scientific methods that allow the measuring of the nature of reality - which includes us in some aspects).
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04-14-2009, 10:36 PM
Post: #7
RE: Why?
then there is an obligation to allow us to find the truth

True.
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01-31-2010, 04:44 AM
Post: #8
RE: Why?
Why do they have places of worship?
Some times we have places to worship
But that just to gather people and make them love each other
Like
Which gather so many people together?
I can pray in your home or with others in mosque
In mosque is better just because others

Why do these places cost so much?
If that right
Because people which have these places are greedy
And Allah will punish all people which
Prevent people to pray unless they give him money

Why is not the natural world enough?
Natural world is enough for ever thing except
Pilgrimage
Even pilgrimage is in the natural world but in specific spot of it
Just to gather people


Why does religion have defined leaders?
That is not right
The religion defined the prophets and
When they dead
You or we
Should defined any one as a leader
Any suitable one
As you know any country need leader

Why do they have golden ornaments, pictures, and writing?
They do not

Why do they preach?
To show all people the truth

Why do they have money?
They do not

Why is the truth hidden?
If you ask any one about the truth he will show you
The truth as his seen
But what is the truth you must thing
If you believe that there is one creates us
Ask him without a pray or any other thing
To show you the truth
Tel him that you want to follow it
And him to show it to you
And to enter you to paradise


Why is there poverty?
Want to tell you that one day in the Islamic country
At money years ago
There was wide country
Without any poor one
That is sure as I think nit all people was rich
But they was not greedy
(I will tell you the storey there was donations and they ask people around all the Islamic country if they want money but no one take them
They ask them to take money if they are poor, need money to marry, or they have debts, there were slaves they ask them to take money to give it to their masters
To be free but no body do
{At that time there was laws which say
The slave if he wants to write agreement with his maser
To pay him money
To get him free
The master should do
And the paid money must be as usual}
The Islamic country was so wide at that time
That means that people at that time were not greedy
Think with me if ever body
Buy the food and water and cloth and pay to get house
And after that all of his money he gives him to his brothers
No one will be
About Arab world
The Arabic scientists always say that
If all the Sudan is farmed
It will produce enough food to the entire Arabic world
And see what they are fighting instead of farming
And I do not even why
Sudan people are hungry they do not their selves at all
Allah creates
Pure water to drink
Farm lands to farm and get food
Farm lands and animals to produce the cloth material
And creates to us hands to make the cloth
The land is enough to all of us to live
But look what there are hungry
There is kids die just because they are hungry
There is poverty just because we are greedy
I think I am greedy


Why is the world as it is?
Allah creates the world as it is to test us
If we are good or evil
Because Allah do not want to enter evil people to paradise
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01-31-2010, 08:03 AM
Post: #9
RE: Why?
"Now we're talking economics. And it is economics. It's wonderful to think that maybe some day we can eradicate poverty, but the socialist state simply fails. Every single time. Small communities of voluntary citizens can sometimes be socialist, but governments cannot be. So we are left with the capitalist system, which is a very good system, but it is not a very kind system. Humanity, as a whole, is stronger, better, and more responsive under capitalism. But certain individuals are left helplessly out in the cold. This is not to be just passed over, it is horrible, and the more people who voluntarily give of themselves to help these folk out the better. But it's human nature that there will always be more impoverished then there are generous people."

Now I'm seeing another reason why you spend so much time trying to sell atheism. You're a capitalist and as such religions like true Christianity and Islam would scare you politically because they are basically anti-materialistic and promote sharing of society's wealth. You can't have servants of God running around telling people to forgo hoarding of wealth and to refuse material aggrandizement because you need a Hobbsian dog-eat-dog worldview to rationalize capitalist exploitation as "human nature".
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01-31-2010, 08:59 AM
Post: #10
RE: Why?
People make the mistake of blaming God for all the suffering in the world. However, the real ruler of the world is Satan the Devil. 1 John 5:19 says: "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one."
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