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Why Creationism is impossible
04-04-2010, 10:45 PM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2010 10:49 PM by TheJackel.)
Post: #1
Why Creationism is impossible
Here we are going to talk about why creationism is fundamentally and literally impossible. To actually believe in creationism you would have to believe that complexity is created from the highest level of complexity to the lowest level. Hence, believing divinity works backwards or creation happens in reverse. This however is literally impossible and show's the critical flaw in the creationists argument..

Example of reverse creationism:

"Only GOD could know how to create Knowledge"

No mind can create the reality to which it is apart of, contained in, and comprised of. This means that existence can not be created, nor can something not be made of the substance of existence or exist outside of existence. Thus, there can not be a -1 dimensional plane or -1 energy as a form of existence. This also means that all things are subject to substance and complexity and can not be of non-material.. A negative capacity can not sustain the ability to contain or have capacity to contain existence, information, or even a consciousness.. Hence, I doubt a theist will claim their god to be of zero complexity, or of negative complexity. in fact a GOD would be slave to the need to have information he himself can not create just to know he himself would exist. No mind can solve infinite regress, or represent the Universal Set to existence, especially considering this would involve SOLIPSISM!

Thus, existence simply exists because non-existence can not be a literal noun, or be a literal person, place, or thing of existence.. Non-existence states that itself can not exist, or have capacity to be a form of existence without negating its own definition into existence.. This is where existence does not require consciousness to exist, and why all forms of consciousness require more cause to exist than unconsciousness!

So we Have a list that can not be designed and created into existence! And this list explains exactly why the notion of creationism = Epic fail and why the notion of a GOD = Epic fail..

* existence
* intelligence
* information
* knowledge
* Point of zero
* Empty Space
* self-awareness
* self-identity
* consciousness
* a place for one's self to exist
* mind containment
* light/dark
* infinity
* Wisdom
* time
* sight
* hearing
* smell
* observation
* calculation
* manipulation
* thought
* perception
* reality
* Feelings
* Emotions
* complexity
* cause and effect
* Morality
* Cognitive behavior
* Inertia
* Progress / progression
* Mental Processing
* Memory
* Osculation
* intent
* Ability
* Positive and Negative
* Imagination
* Design
* Point of View
* Life
* mobility
* power
* divinity
* math
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04-04-2010, 10:57 PM
Post: #2
RE: Why Creationism is impossible
(04-04-2010 10:45 PM)TheJackel Wrote:  No mind can create the reality to which it is apart of, contained in, and comprised of. This means that existence can not be created, nor can something not be made of the substance of existence or exist outside of existence. Thus, there can not be a -1 dimensional plane or -1 energy as a form of existence. This also means that all things are subject to substance and complexity and can not be of non-material.. A negative capacity can not sustain the ability to contain or have capacity to contain existence, information, or even a consciousness.. Hence, I doubt a theist will claim their god to be of zero complexity, or of negative complexity. in fact a GOD would be slave to the need to have information he himself can not create just to know he himself would exist. No mind can solve infinite regress, or represent the Universal Set to existence, especially considering this would involve SOLIPSISM!

Now this is better.
The information you profess here is based upon what?
Your knowledge of existence?
Or someone elses?
Perhaps it is based upon your absolute knowledge of reality, or is it just this reality?
Or is it based upon human experience, knowledge and capacities?
Or are you in fact God and therefore infinite, omniscient, omnipotent?

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04-04-2010, 11:25 PM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2010 11:50 PM by TheJackel.)
Post: #3
RE: Why Creationism is impossible
(04-04-2010 10:57 PM)kevlar Wrote:  
(04-04-2010 10:45 PM)TheJackel Wrote:  No mind can create the reality to which it is apart of, contained in, and comprised of. This means that existence can not be created, nor can something not be made of the substance of existence or exist outside of existence. Thus, there can not be a -1 dimensional plane or -1 energy as a form of existence. This also means that all things are subject to substance and complexity and can not be of non-material.. A negative capacity can not sustain the ability to contain or have capacity to contain existence, information, or even a consciousness.. Hence, I doubt a theist will claim their god to be of zero complexity, or of negative complexity. in fact a GOD would be slave to the need to have information he himself can not create just to know he himself would exist. No mind can solve infinite regress, or represent the Universal Set to existence, especially considering this would involve SOLIPSISM!

Now this is better.
The information you profess here is based upon what?
Your knowledge of existence?
Or someone elses?
Perhaps it is based upon your absolute knowledge of reality, or is it just this reality?
Or is it based upon human experience, knowledge and capacities?
Or are you in fact God and therefore infinite, omniscient, omnipotent?

Existence can be defined as anything and everything in and of existence, as well as any place or anywhere in or of existence.. The entirety to that which can be known would be subject to the substance of existence.. An Infinite Eternal Phenomenal Informational Universe to where energy is the source substance to all things that exist because only energy can self-osculate from a zero base energy in a zero dimensional plane.. Hence, Quantum Electrodynamic physics..

This means all mass matter and energy = information, and all things including consciousness are subject to require it in order to exist. A mind can not exist without capacity.. Most people don't even realize that infinity is fickle and finite because you can not infinitely regress into a negative existence!

This is where zero = base energy = a NO-THING = how you have empty 3Dimensional space, and why all things can be regressed back to zero base energy.. This is where zero = both zero and one (o,1), also known as a Qbit in Quantum Electrodynamics. What this means is that 0 represents no other objects even if there are an infinite number of other zero's or points of zero. The 1 means that it is the only object even if there are an infinite number of other points of zero, or other 1's.. This is where adding 0,1 to 0,1 = 0,2 to achieve an increase in complexity or energy.. Thus, what you perceive to be nothing isn't nothing..

There is a reason why Energy can convert to matter and matter can convert to energy, as well as why life is mass, matter, and energy.. Even if you claimed your GOD to exist it would have to also be of complexity greater than zero, and comprised of the substance of existence.. Hence, we would be like a cultivation of RNA worshiping a Lab full of human scientists. And we are not GOD's but manipulators of the substance of existence to which we are all made of..

So I can ask you this.. Is your GOD in existence? Or is your GOD existence itself?.. And how does Solipsism play into your answer?

So I can accurately refute creationism or a GOD because all minds require two levels of containment, and boundaries.. All minds first need a reality or a Where! Hence, a place of existence in order to exist.. 2ndly all minds would require separation within reality in order to have individuality, self-identity, and consciousness.. Thus they must have their own bodies of containment. This also means a GOD would not be boundless or even all knowing, and stating so would = Solipsism to where we all would effectively be "GOD".. The list I have provided you would have to be in existence and comprised of existence. And the obvious effect of that is this, all minds and things in or of existence is a product of existence.. Thus there is no such thing as a "GOD"..

One can not pre-exist existence in order to create it, and one can not be the whole of existence but only a product of existence.. This all equals epic fail for creationism, religion, and the notion of a GOD.. Just trying to state a GOD has an infinite mind would be stating the belief in Solipsism.. And mind containment proves solipsism as impossible.. No mind can wrap around itself and everything else either..
to put this into perspective, 10 can not exist prior to 0123456789 and itself. Divinity is actually a model of evolution because divinity can not exist at it's highest level before it's lowest level. Reverse creation is impossible.. It's like trying to sate that one can create intelligence or information that makes up the base of inquiry of knowledge so intelligence can apply it.

Thus Information is GOD.. However, no single piece of mass, matter, or energy that represents information is self-aware.. Thus we can conclude that it takes a great deal of complexity to support consciousness, self-awareness, and self-identity.. Far more complexity that it would to support unconsciousness.. Existence does not require consciousness to exist.. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that consciousness is slave to existence, information, complexity, energy, a place to exist, and substance..

Thus would you say your GOD is 3 dimensional? I surely wouldn't suggest it's 0 dimensional Wink
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04-04-2010, 11:51 PM
Post: #4
RE: Why Creationism is impossible
I point out again that all of your arguments are based upon human experience and knowledge, since it is not possible for you to know that that situation is the totality of that available. You have every right to BELIEVE that , but it does not necessarily make it so. Your belief is as valid, or not, as another belief.

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04-04-2010, 11:57 PM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2010 12:10 AM by TheJackel.)
Post: #5
RE: Why Creationism is impossible
The Complexity Argument:

So in simple terms and in an easy model we can see the difference of opinion of how things came into existence. (10 being highest level of complexity for example purposes)

God model:

This is where GOD is said to be the source origin at the highest level.. So order of creation looks like this:

10 (GOD) ->9 -> 8 ->7 ->6 -> 5 -> 4 -> 3 -> 2 -> 1 ->0

* This is essentially reverse creationism, or negative flow to achieve complexity. An example of preexisting existence in order to create existence.

* here applying negative flow is not in compliance with the process of decay or regression.. Hence applying positive flow or progression results in decay or regression. It fails to comply with the progressive and regressive flow of mass, matter, and energy as we know it!

* this is stating that 10 would exist before 0123456789 and itself.. Well, this is impossible!

Quantum Electrodynamics / evolution Model:

This is where zero (0,1) is said to be the source origin of existence (existence itself)

0 ->1 ->2 ->3 ->4 ->5 ->6 ->7 ->8 ->9 ->10

* Here creation is in the form of formation.. A progressive flow vs negative impossible flow that results in higher complexity.. So here 10 can not exist without 0123456789

* allows higher complexity to manipulate, interact, and perceive with all the lower and higher levels of complexity on a limited scale relative to their own state or level...

* here applying a negative flow is in compliance with decay and regression

What do you get from zero? or a no-thing?

* Empty Space *follows dimensional complexity*
* Place of existence *follows dimensional complexity*
* Dimensional complexity 0D,1D,2D,3D,4D.XD "follows energy"
* time *follows dimensional complexity*
* energy *follows itself, is the substance of self, self osculates, produces a progressive and regressive flow of all the above*
(04-04-2010 11:51 PM)kevlar Wrote:  I point out again that all of your arguments are based upon human experience and knowledge, since it is not possible for you to know that that situation is the totality of that available. You have every right to BELIEVE that , but it does not necessarily make it so. Your belief is as valid, or not, as another belief.

Wrong,

It's based on commonsense logic, reason, and rationality.

hence, even if you died and woke up somewhere else, you would still find yourself in another place of existence to which you could make the same ridiculous circular argument.. This isn't a belief sir.. So we shall now go over the differences here:

TRUTH VS FALLACY:

So the first thing we must do is establish the differences between truth, faith, and belief.. You can say this is Truth VS Fallacy, and that we all know truth only comes to be realized when it has faced rigorously harsh doses of self scrutiny. So what is the differences between truth, belief, and faith? Well, how about we find out by taking a closer look at each of these terms so we can establish a foundation for determining how they apply to the world we live in.

* Truth: substantiated unarguable information that is validated without possible argument against it.
* Faith: The hoping what you think is divine truth is actually true when there is no means of validation to give it substantiation.. It's a means to keep one believing irregardless if it's proven false, irrelevant, or impossible.
* Belief : believing in what you perceive to be true irregardless of validity, and in this case it is highly dependent on Faith for support. Otherwise a collapse of belief would likely occur.

Example Truth:

Absolute substantiated fact = Existence can be verified without argument to exist simply because non-existence can not be a literal person, place, or thing of existence. Non-existence can not be a literal noun!

Example Fallacy:

A faith based belief = believing a GOD created existence without having to explain how one can preexist existence in order to create it.

----

So when you can explain to me how a conscious observer can be consciously observant without a preexisting reality, information, knowledge, energy, or substance you let me know, You might win the Nobel Prize.. Hence, you have to have something to observe in order to be an observer son.. It doesn't work any other way! Sitting there a pleading in circular nonsensical arguments does not give you credibility to state this as a "belief".
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04-05-2010, 12:06 AM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2010 12:08 AM by kevlar.)
Post: #6
RE: Why Creationism is impossible
"It's based on commonsense logic, reason, and rationality.

hence, even if you died and woke up somewhere else, you would still find yourself in another place of existence to which you could make the same ridiculous circular argument.. This isn't a belief sir.. So we shall now go over the differences here:"


Quite simply you don't know that, your knowledge is limited to human knowledge. What makes you omniscient so as to be certain that your reality is the only reality?

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04-05-2010, 12:21 AM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2010 12:33 AM by TheJackel.)
Post: #7
RE: Why Creationism is impossible
(04-05-2010 12:06 AM)kevlar Wrote:  "It's based on commonsense logic, reason, and rationality.

hence, even if you died and woke up somewhere else, you would still find yourself in another place of existence to which you could make the same ridiculous circular argument.. This isn't a belief sir.. So we shall now go over the differences here:"


Quite simply you don't know that, your knowledge is limited to human knowledge. What makes you omniscient so as to be certain that your reality is the only reality?

here you fail utterly.. It doesn't matter how many realities you think there is, or how many dimensions you think there are.. They will all be subject to capacity, complexity, substance, and existence... They would all only individually be figments or subsets that make up the sum total of existence.. Hence, your reading comprehension seems selective and unable to critically think on the subject..

Example:

Reality could in theory infinitely expand into other realities, and causalities. However, they can not infinitely regress into negative realities or casualties .. So I am telling you that yes, there can be expanded realities, however none of these can represent source origin of existence.. Sorry son.. It doesn't matter what realities you think exist.. They are all irrelevant to the subject and only substantiate my argument.

You are not thinking in terms of the Sum total of all existence sir.

Hence if you are to observe something it would have to have dimensional complexity period.. This is not something you can argue against logically what-so-ever. Perception of your GOD for example would be what? is he flat? 2d? is he 3d? 4d? 5D?.. He can't have complexity to be conscious at zero.. so your argument fails.. It's something you can't just scoff at as a "belief".. Feel free to give me any example that can be non-material or of negative complexity and still have a capacity to exist or even function..

it's like the people that say GOD creates Time, but fail to understand that without time there is no forward inertia to support a thought process, even under a single instant.. When people talk about GOD I can't help think which window did logical thought processing jump out of :/
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04-05-2010, 12:24 AM
Post: #8
RE: Why Creationism is impossible
I am the one THINKING sir, I have no agenda to promote, that sir is your position.

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04-05-2010, 12:44 AM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2010 12:47 AM by TheJackel.)
Post: #9
RE: Why Creationism is impossible
(04-05-2010 12:24 AM)kevlar Wrote:  I am the one THINKING sir, I have no agenda to promote, that sir is your position.

So your argument is to revert to hiding behind an agenda argument to give yourself relevance? Seriously?.. Let me tell ya, I had been a christian for well over 20 years, I know full well what agendas are.. And to be technical, you can only have 1 of 3 agendas on any given subject. You can only either be neutral, for, or against .. Neutral in this case would mean you have no opinion on the matter, and you clearly do. Or being neutral is akin to fence sitting. And yes my agenda it to challenge the opposing agenda.. However, this does not invalidate my argument, you can either address it logically, or you can't address it at all. Hence, you haven't said anything of substance other than point a finger and say that it's just another belief as a means to devalue the argument without actually having to address the argument. It's pleading at best.

I do agree with you that we can't prove the existence of other realities, and causalities .. But don't sit there and play circular games, I know how they are played.
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04-05-2010, 12:58 AM
Post: #10
RE: Why Creationism is impossible
I am not playing circular games by any means, I am merely pointing out, that your ABSOLUTE belief is as valid, or not, as the ABSOLUTE belief of the theist. Neither has absolute information to validate their beliefs ABSOLUTELY. To present your case, therefore, as a fait accompli is not simply not valid, if you wish to be involved in conversation, don't present your case as if conversation is impossible. I have already stated that you are entitled to your opinion, you are not entitled to claim omniscience in support of your opinion. That is of course just my opinion. Nothing personal is implied by that.

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