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Why we need God
01-15-2009, 07:38 PM
Post: #1
Why we need God
There is a thread titled "why do we need God". I though we should have one called "why we need God".

I think we need one because of the terrible state of the world and how we treat each other. If we could do things like this.

[Image: logo-one-world-e-170_rdax_142x168.jpg][Image: mdg8ep0.gif]

These are the UN millenium development goals. Unless we have guiding principles and actual faith, we don't get anywhere. Did you know that faith organizations and churches are the largest donors and providers of free services to those in need? Why, because their beliefs in something beyond self and the principles that come with that. So that is one reason "why we need God".
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01-15-2009, 08:59 PM
Post: #2
RE: Why we need God
This kind of argument with respect to God seems to me flawed at a very basic level.

If there was a general concensus that we had no need of the United Nations, it could be wound up. Similarly, if there was a concensus that we needed a new organisation of some kind or other, it could be created with the appropriate international treatises.

But that kind of reasoning simply doesn't work with God. If he is there, then he is there whether we like it or not, and whether we think that his existence is useful or not. On the other hand, if he doesn't exist, then he isn't suddenly going to start existing just because we think it would be helpful if he did exist.
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01-16-2009, 09:59 AM
Post: #3
RE: Why we need God
Okay, so God to be worshipped, but not involved in people's lives so as to inspire and motivate. Not involved with the world so as to provide guides on how to live. It seems to me that argument that God is just "there", means any ideas of incarnational theology and "god come down" are just irrelevant if it is that way.

Or maybe you just misunderstood me. I do not think that humanists and humanism exist apart from basic religious motivations. Basic justice among the world's people would not even be considered. Caring for fellow human beings.

I was not trying to be argumentative, I was hoping that people might post about why they think we need God. What I get thus far from your's is that we don't need God and our perception of the relationship doesn't really matter.
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01-16-2009, 10:38 AM (This post was last modified: 01-16-2009 11:07 AM by Anglican.)
Post: #4
RE: Why we need God
(01-16-2009 09:59 AM)twenty-two20 Wrote:  Okay, so God to be worshipped, but not involved in people's lives so as to inspire and motivate. Not involved with the world so as to provide guides on how to live. It seems to me that argument that God is just "there", means any ideas of incarnational theology and "god come down" are just irrelevant if it is that way.

Or maybe you just misunderstood me. I do not think that humanists and humanism exist apart from basic religious motivations. Basic justice among the world's people would not even be considered. Caring for fellow human beings.

Believing in God won't get the goals you listed in your post realised any faster, if they are realised at all. Laudable though they might be, the obstacle standing in the way of their realisation is human sinfulness. Inspiring examples won't remove that fundamental reality.


Quote:I was not trying to be argumentative, I was hoping that people might post about why they think we need God. What I get thus far from your's is that we don't need God and our perception of the relationship doesn't really matter.

I know you are no great fan of salvation, but the New Testament is fairly univocal in declaring that to have been the purpose of the Incarnation. If Christian theology has got anything to say about the here and now, it is that trying to create heaven on earth is a fantasy. That doesn't excuse us from trying to improve the situation of the destitute, but people with utopian dreams are dangerous. They are dangerous because they become frustrated at Utopia's failure to arrive in accordance with their favoured fantasy, whether that be Marxism, Fascism, Humanism, or even a Pelagian style theism. Then they resort to violence to try and make it happen.

Knowledge of yourself as one of the sources of evil in the world will probably win the poor a kinder hearing than if you see yourself in the vanguard of the movement which is going to cure all the world's ills (caused be somebody or something other than yourself, of course).
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01-16-2009, 11:37 AM
Post: #5
RE: Why we need God
to keep us from the clutches of the athiests,who would jump on your back for your last penny.

Good evil salvation
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01-17-2009, 11:03 AM
Post: #6
RE: Why we need God
(01-15-2009 07:38 PM)twenty-two20 Wrote:  [Image: logo-one-world-e-170_rdax_142x168.jpg][Image: mdg8ep0.gif]

I love irony.


2) Achieve universal primary education

a. For centuries, Christians held back progress in understanding the world in which we live ... for religious reasons.

b. Even today, a great many Christians want to destroy primary education by getting evolution tossed out of science classes and/or getting their anti-science, religious pseudoscience (Creationism or Intelligent Design Creationism) taught.

c. Many people today still believe ridiculous claims based on religion, such as males having 1 fewer rib than females. It's religion - not science - keeping such people ignorant.



3) Promote gender equality and empower women

a. The Bible is clearly anti-female. Islam is too.



4) Reduce child mortality

a. Impossible to due religiously: must rely upon the only REAL method of achieving medical advancement ... science.

b. Why does God allow innocent newborns and other young children to die in the first place?

c. And since it is God's will that innocent newborns die (not one sparrow falls to the ground without it being God's will), if we work to combat child mortality then we would be working against God's will.



5) Improve maternal health

a. Impossible to due religiously: must rely upon the only REAL method of achieving medical advancement ... science.



6) Combat HIV/AIDS, malaria, and other diseases

a. Impossible to due religiously: must rely upon the only REAL method of achieving medical advancement ... science.

b. The Pope helps spread HIV in Africa by forbidding the use of condoms.



7) Ensure environmental sustainability

a. Impossible to due religiously: must rely upon the only REAL method of achieving medical advancement ... science.




This list reads more like a set of reasons for why we need science, and to leave religion behind.
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01-17-2009, 12:03 PM
Post: #7
RE: Why we need God
we need God because there are a lot of selfish people not sharing.

Good evil salvation
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01-18-2009, 11:51 AM
Post: #8
RE: Why we need God
(01-16-2009 10:38 AM)Anglican Wrote:  I know you are no great fan of salvation, but the New Testament is fairly univocal in declaring that to have been the purpose of the Incarnation. If Christian theology has got anything to say about the here and now, it is that trying to create heaven on earth is a fantasy.
As someone whose family lost 3/5 of it's members in WW2 and and equivalent proportions in WW1 and the Franco-Prussian War of 1870, I certainly don't believe in heaven on earth and "Jerusalem in this fair land". But is absolutely unacceptable that weathly, comfortable first world people sit on their backsides in pews and feel just fine about their salvation. So I agree with what you say here:
Quote:That doesn't excuse us from trying to improve the situation of the destitute, but people with utopian dreams are dangerous. They are dangerous because they become frustrated at Utopia's failure to arrive in accordance with their favoured fantasy, whether that be Marxism, Fascism, Humanism, or even a Pelagian style theism. Then they resort to violence to try and make it happen.
I simply believe that faith can motivate people beyond their basic selfishness, even if salvationism as I see actively pursued in North America is the focus of so much religion here. I see these ideas as far more "dangerous": God wants me to be prosperous. My "fantasy" is simply that people don't starve, have access to basic health care, education etc, and get to live beyond infancy. I t so bad to think we should be our brothers' and sisters' keepers? You are right that wealthy countries and people find the costs of these simple little things too much, even as they pray every Sunday or every day for their own miserable souls, while they send troops and military supplies at incredible costs to protect "a way of life".

Quote:Knowledge of yourself as one of the sources of evil in the world will probably win the poor a kinder hearing than if you see yourself in the vanguard of the movement which is going to cure all the world's ills (caused be somebody or something other than yourself, of course).
If God wishes to damn me for not accepting a particular form of theology and for caring for my fellow human beings, so be it. I never claimed utopianism, nor perfection, nor that I'm right. Full of flaws I am. I try to follow the Christian way, but I leave matters of my final path (if is exists) to God, and don't think I want to even think about any eternal rewards. I have brothers and sisters currently in Brazil, Mexico, Taiwan all doing the things you disagree as basic goals for th past 6 to 20 years. God may have all our bombed out dead relatives in heaven, I don't know. Myself, I work with two groups mainly: inner city addicted and North American Indians - they're the same group.
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