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Word of GOD vs the Words of Men Documentary
06-08-2009, 07:32 PM
Post: #1
Word of GOD vs the Words of Men Documentary
This video is awesome. I'm sure it will cause much debate.

The Word of GOD vs. the Words of Men
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06-09-2009, 06:10 AM
Post: #2
RE: Word of GOD vs the Words of Men Documentary
(Note: this same response is posted to the same video which Submit has placed in various threads on the forum).

There are a number of issues here.

1. For all of the major world faiths, the original manuscripts of their respective sacred writings do not exist.

2. For Christianity, very ancient manuscript copies and manuscript fragments do exist, and these provide a "paper trail" which scholars can examine carefully in order to reconstruct the originals with a very high degree of accuracy (98% for the New Testament, 85% or better for the Old Testament). Even for the 2% of the N.T. text which scholars have no definitive answer, the variants are all known, and they are inconsequential for faith and doctrine.

3. For Islam, there is no paper trail of ancient manuscripts which scholars can examine in order to reconstruct the originals with any degree of accuracy at all, since the paper trail was deliberately destroyed by the then-current Islamic leadership 150 after Mohammed's time. It is anyone's guess what the post-Mohammad Islamic leadership may have added to, or deleted from, the original writings of Mohammad.

4. Only a relatively small percentage of Christians can read Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic, the languages in which the Bible was originally written; thus, the majority of Christians need to have the Bible translated into their own native languages.

5. Only a relatively small percentage of Muslims can read ancient Arabic; thus the majority of Muslims need to have the Qur'an translated into their own languages.

6. All modern translations of the Bible are based on the following texts: Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia (Old Testament for Catholics and Protestants); Septuaginta (Old Testament for Orthodox; this is an ancient translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek); and Novum Testamentum Graece (New Testament for Orthodox, Catholics, and Protestants)

7. All modern translations of the Qur'an are based on the same ancient Arabic text, but the authenticity of this text cannot be ascertained because the paper trail was deliberately destroyed, 150 years after Mohammad, by the then-current Islamic leadership.

8. There are multiple accurate modern-language translations of the Bible; Christians are free to read whichever one(s) they choose.

9. There are multiple accurate modern-language translations of the Qur'an; to some extent Muslims--whether of the Sunni, Shia, or Sufi branches--can choose which one to read, although in some Muslim countries it is considered improper to translate the Qur'an, and therefore they refer to their translations as "interpretations," often with the stipulation that the ancient Arabic copy be placed in parallel on the same page with the translation (the Qur'anic writings are brief enough that this does not make the book too large to carry).

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/ --- http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
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06-09-2009, 01:38 PM (This post was last modified: 06-09-2009 01:46 PM by submitmj.)
Post: #3
RE: Word of GOD vs the Words of Men Documentary
(06-09-2009 06:10 AM)Stereophonic Wrote:  (Note: this same response is posted to the same video which Submit has placed in various threads on the forum).

There are a number of issues here.

1. For all of the major world faiths, the original manuscripts of their respective sacred writings do not exist.

2. For Christianity, very ancient manuscript copies and manuscript fragments do exist, and these provide a "paper trail" which scholars can examine carefully in order to reconstruct the originals with a very high degree of accuracy (98% for the New Testament, 85% or better for the Old Testament). Even for the 2% of the N.T. text which scholars have no definitive answer, the variants are all known, and they are inconsequential for faith and doctrine.

3. For Islam, there is no paper trail of ancient manuscripts which scholars can examine in order to reconstruct the originals with any degree of accuracy at all, since the paper trail was deliberately destroyed by the then-current Islamic leadership 150 after Mohammed's time. It is anyone's guess what the post-Mohammad Islamic leadership may have added to, or deleted from, the original writings of Mohammad.

Hey, this video was all about the message of worshiping one GOD alone as decreed in all the religious scriptures, and how humans have disobeyed GOD and created an entirely different religion NOT authorized by GOD. Even the Hindu scripture has remnants of the original message (Worship GOD alone) in it.

I can see your bias towards the Bible as your argument instantly gives credit to the Bible and discredits the Quran. However, this video is not attacking the scriptures (OT, NT, Quran), just the people who claim to uphold them (which they clearly are not). All this video is saying is for Jews, Christians and Muslims to FOLLOW their scripture as decreed in their scripture.

On a side note, your argument claims the Bible is essentially uncorrupted. So, if you believe the O.T, and N.T. are complete, why do you need the Talmud (if Jewish) or the Trinity doctrine (Christian)? Is the word of GOD not good enough for you to uphold. Do you need humans to tell you what to do over GOD?

If you cannot see the blatantly obvious corruption of all monotheistic religions in this video by people setting up partners (Jesus, Muhammad etc.) with GOD, you are blinded by your ego. It prevents you from seeing the gross injustice the majority of people commit against GOD by setting up weak little humans (Jesus, Muhammad, scholars, etc.) as gods besides GOD.

Peace.
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06-09-2009, 02:22 PM (This post was last modified: 06-09-2009 02:38 PM by Stereophonic.)
Post: #4
RE: Word of GOD vs the Words of Men Documentary
(06-09-2009 01:38 PM)submitmj Wrote:  ...All this video is saying is for Jews, Christians and Muslims to FOLLOW their scripture as decreed in their scripture...

Okay, our Christian scriptures tell us that Jesus is God in human form, who suffers with us and for us in order to make possible a relationship of love between us and our Creator. Jesus is therefore worthy of our worship, according to our Christian scriptures, and so we will continue to worship him as we have always done--per your suggestion regarding following our scriptures as decreed in our scripture. Thank you for your words of encouragement.

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/ --- http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
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06-09-2009, 02:54 PM
Post: #5
RE: Word of GOD vs the Words of Men Documentary
(06-09-2009 02:22 PM)Stereophonic Wrote:  
(06-09-2009 01:38 PM)submitmj Wrote:  ...All this video is saying is for Jews, Christians and Muslims to FOLLOW their scripture as decreed in their scripture...

Okay, our Christian scriptures tell us that Jesus is God in human form, who suffers with us and for us in order to make possible a relationship of love between us and our Creator. Jesus is therefore worthy of our worship, according to our Christian scriptures, and so we will continue to worship him as we have always done--per your suggestion regarding following our scriptures as decreed in our scripture. Thank you for your words of encouragement.

Is that REALLY what the Bible says?

The Bible's Jesus
Jesus proclaimed aloud: ``Whoever puts faith in me believes not so much in me as in him who sent me; ..... For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life, whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me.'' [John 12:44-50]

"I cannot do anything of myself. I judge as I hear, and my judgment is honest because I am not seeking my own will but the will of him who sent me." [ John 5:30 ]

Jesus said: ``My doctrine is not my own; it comes from him who sent me.'' [ John 7:16 ]

"Men of Israel, listen to me! Jesus the Nazorean was a man whom God sent to you with miracles, wonders, and signs as his credentials. These God worked through him in your midst, as you well know." [ Acts 2:22 ]

``...The man who hears my word and has faith in him who sent me possesses eternal life.'' [ John 5:24 ]
"Whoever welcomes me welcomes, not me, but him who sent me." [ Mattew 10:40, Mark 9:37, Luke 9:48, & John 13:20 ]
``...I have not come of myself. I was sent by One who has the right to send, and him you do not know. I know him because it is from him I come; he sent me.'' [ John 7:28-29 ]
Jesus looked up to heaven and said, ``...Eternal life is this: to know you, the only true God, and him whom you have sent, Jesus Christ.'' [ John 17:1-3 ]

All who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. [ Romans 8:14 ]

Jesus looked upward and said, ``Father, I thank you for having heard me. I know that you always hear me but I have said this for the sake of the crowd, that they may believe that you sent me.'' [ John 11:41-42 ]

As he was setting out on a journey a man came running up, knelt down before him and asked, ``Good Teacher, what must I do to share in everlasting life?'' Jesus answered, ``Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.'' [ Mark 10:17-18 ]

``None of those who call me `Lord' will enter the kingdom of God, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven." [ Matthew 7:21 ]

``...Go to my brothers and tell them, `I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' '' [ John 20:17 ]

``God is my Lord and your Lord; you shall worship Him alone. This is the right path." [Quran 3:51, 19:36, & 43:64]

Trinity, the doctrine of God taught by Christians that asserts that God is one in essence but three in ``person,'' Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ``Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one'' (Deut. 6:4). [ Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1975 ]

Mark 12
The Greatest Commandment

28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
32 "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love HIM with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

1 Kings 8:27 (New International Reader's Version)
27 "But will you really live on earth? After all, the heavens can't hold you. In fact, even the highest heavens can't hold you. So this temple I've built certainly can't hold you!

You need to read your scripture more carefully.
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06-09-2009, 03:26 PM
Post: #6
RE: Word of GOD vs the Words of Men Documentary
You have an advantage, Submit, in that you can pick and choose passages from here and there and interpret them as though they didn't require any illumination from other passages; Christians, on the other hand, are obligated to read the entire Bible in context.

And if a Christian were to list passages that speak of Jesus' divinity, you would just claim (in the absence of any evidence) that those particular passages that speak of Jesus' divinity are somehow "corrupt," whereas the other passages quoted by you are not "corrupt."

If you want to use the Christian scriptures at all, you have to take the whole thing, not just the bits and pieces that you like.

http://www.biblicaltraining.org/ --- http://www.ntwrightpage.com/
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06-09-2009, 05:46 PM (This post was last modified: 06-09-2009 05:53 PM by submitmj.)
Post: #7
RE: Word of GOD vs the Words of Men Documentary
(06-09-2009 03:26 PM)Stereophonic Wrote:  You have an advantage, Submit, in that you can pick and choose passages from here and there and interpret them as though they didn't require any illumination from other passages; Christians, on the other hand, are obligated to read the entire Bible in context.

And if a Christian were to list passages that speak of Jesus' divinity, you would just claim (in the absence of any evidence) that those particular passages that speak of Jesus' divinity are somehow "corrupt," whereas the other passages quoted by you are not "corrupt."

If you want to use the Christian scriptures at all, you have to take the whole thing, not just the bits and pieces that you like.

Jesus confirmed the first and most important commandment in the Torah 'Your Lord is ONE.' When Jesus said this, he was not referring to himself, but the ONE WHO SENT HIM (GOD Almighty).

Mark 12 (The Greatest Commandment)
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."
32 "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love HIM with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

Since, you believe Jesus turned into GOD sometime after his death, that would mean GOD was part of a Trinity. If this is the truth, show me one verse in the Bible that has the word "TRINITY" in it?
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06-09-2009, 08:33 PM (This post was last modified: 06-09-2009 08:34 PM by Stereophonic.)
Post: #8
RE: Word of GOD vs the Words of Men Documentary
(06-09-2009 05:46 PM)submitmj Wrote:  ...you believe Jesus turned into GOD sometime after his death...

Nope. Jesus didn't become God, Jesus always was God. If you want to debate with Christians, you should at least first try to understand what Christians believe.

Quote: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.

The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John bore witness about him, and cried out, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.'") And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known (John 1:1-18).


Quote:...that would mean GOD was part of a Trinity. If this is the truth, show me one verse in the Bible that has the word "TRINITY" in it?

I'm not as hung up on the word "Trinity" as you are. It's just a shorthand term for the fact that the Bible says God is One, and yet this One God can be understood as an Eternal Perichoretic Relationship of Three Persons--Father, Son, and Spirit, each of whom is God, according to the Bible.

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06-09-2009, 08:47 PM (This post was last modified: 06-09-2009 08:48 PM by submitmj.)
Post: #9
RE: Word of GOD vs the Words of Men Documentary
(06-09-2009 08:33 PM)Stereophonic Wrote:  
(06-09-2009 05:46 PM)submitmj Wrote:  ...you believe Jesus turned into GOD sometime after his death...

I'm not as hung up on the word "Trinity" as you are. It's just a shorthand term for the fact that the Bible says God is One, and yet this One God can be understood as an Eternal Perichoretic Relationship of Three Persons--Father, Son, and Spirit, each of whom is God, according to the Bible.

So, Jesus was always GOD according to you. If that is the case, who was JEsus praying to throughout the Bible? Himself? Jesus was not a schizophrenic. Thus, he was talking to a being outside of himself...GOD...A separate entity.

[ John 11:41-42 ] Jesus looked upward and said, ``Father, I thank you for having heard me. I know that you always hear me but I have said this for the sake of the crowd, that they may believe THAT YOU SENT ME.''

[ Mark 10:17-18 ] As he was setting out on a journey a man came running up, knelt down before him and asked, ``Good Teacher, what must I do to share in everlasting life?'' Jesus answered, ``Why do you call me good? NO ONE IS GOOD BUT GOD ALONE.''

Your rationalization of 'one' equaling 'three' is completely illogical when Jesus is clearly stating he is NOT GOD incarnate. I see this discussion is going nowhere. There is only ONE GOD, and you are commanded to worship HIM alone or suffer a painful retribution on the Day of Judgment.
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06-09-2009, 09:03 PM
Post: #10
RE: Word of GOD vs the Words of Men Documentary
(06-09-2009 08:47 PM)submitmj Wrote:  ...I see this discussion is going nowhere...

On this one item, I agree with you. But as I said before, if you want to debate with Christians, you should first try to learn what it is that Christians believe. There is no purpose in using the straw-man arguments you have been presenting thus far in your posts.

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