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YHWH/Allah is not El Elyon and not the Father of Jesus
09-13-2017, 11:33 PM
Post: #41
RE: YHWH/Allah is not El Elyon and not the Father of Jesus
I thought you will help me understand the confusing part of Jesus. And all you can say is "let the spirit show you"! You broke my heart brother, you broke my heart ❤️

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09-14-2017, 02:17 AM
Post: #42
RE: YHWH/Allah is not El Elyon and not the Father of Jesus
(09-13-2017 11:26 PM)Brother Gerald Wrote:  Put God, or watermelon as you wish, yet what power doth a watermelon have? None by it's self. Why It can't even live without a vine or dirt or liquid. Yet God needs nothing and still has unlimited power.

Watermelons exist; I can see them and touch them. With god, that same method to test "existence" is a bit tricky - there is nothing there.

Uttering gibberish like "He was formed into God by God thus we have the Word was God and the Word (which was God) with God, the God that formed Him" doesn't make him magically appear Wink

Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it
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09-14-2017, 07:00 AM
Post: #43
RE: YHWH/Allah is not El Elyon and not the Father of Jesus
(09-13-2017 11:13 PM)Brother Gerald Wrote:  
(09-13-2017 06:20 AM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  
(09-12-2017 09:33 AM)Brother Gerald Wrote:  
(09-12-2017 05:01 AM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  
(09-11-2017 11:32 PM)Brother Gerald Wrote:  First, your statement that Jesus was not an Angel is very correct. Yet your statement that Jesus was not created goes astray. Jesus Himself said he was created. Being formed into the Word God, He(Jesus) became the created creator and created all things both visible and invisible. Even every thought you could possibly think.

What is the basis for you saying that Jesus was 'formed into the Word of God', and what does that mean? Did you mean something like 'formed by' or 'formed from'?

I believe He was formed into God by God thus we have the Word was God and the Word (which was God) with God, the God that formed Him. According to Isaiah 43:10 there was only one God formed.

In most ancient religions in that region, gods did not exist forever. They came into being, and some of them went way, sometimes killed by other gods, existing only in the primeval past. This is what ‘forming’ is all about, that the stories of the other religions have gods coming and going. In Isaiah 43, the Lord is saying that he is the only God, not part of a coming and going pantheon. No preceding or following gods. No gods at all except the Lord.

Quote:Isaiah 43
9
All the nations gather together
and the peoples assemble.
Which of their gods foretold this
and proclaimed to us the former things?
Let them bring in their witnesses to prove they were right,
so that others may hear and say, “It is true.”
10
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.

11
I, even I, am the Lord,
and apart from me there is no savior.
12
I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—
I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “that I am God.
13
Yes, and from ancient days I am he.

‘Forming’ is therefore a fiction, something that applies to non-existent gods of false religions.

This would appear to rule out Jesus being God (or a god of any kind) and being created at some definite time, since this would involve forming another god. The Lord said that did not happen and will not happen.

And John 1:1? and 1:14. I know what you are saying, yet there is too much in the scriptures. Philippians 2: 5 and 6 is just a little salt.

Here are the passages you referenced.

Quote:John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.
[…]
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Philippians 2
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

John says that the Word was in the beginning, not that the Word was formed or that anything was formed into the Word. In v.14, John has the Word become flesh. You could say that the Word was formed into flesh, but not that the Word itself was the result of forming. In Philippians, a pre-existing Christ made himself into human form.

Nowhere in these passages do we see Jesus saying he was created or any indication that he was formed into the Word of God, as you claimed earlier. Nor is there anything to contradict my analysis of Isaiah 43 above.

And here I sit so patiently waiting to find out what price
You have to pay to get out of going through all these things twice
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09-14-2017, 10:43 PM (This post was last modified: 09-14-2017 10:56 PM by Brother Gerald.)
Post: #44
RE: YHWH/Allah is not El Elyon and not the Father of Jesus
(09-13-2017 11:33 PM)KAYSER Wrote:  I thought you will help me understand the confusing part of Jesus. And all you can say is "let the spirit show you"! You broke my heart brother, you broke my heart ❤️

If you have the Spirit of God, there is no confusing part of Jesus. It is very simple, He was created by God as the Word. Formed into the only God that would ever be formed. Then He was the Word God. By Him, in the dispensations of His time as the Word God, God created and made all things. In the process of time we come to the creation of the first Adam, who fell by transgression and all who would be born to the Adamic race fell with him. Needing a redeemer, we can be thankful that God sent Jesus, for the Word was made flesh. The word was no longer God when Jesus Christ came in the flesh. What is so hard to understand about that?
(09-14-2017 02:17 AM)Herminator Wrote:  
(09-13-2017 11:26 PM)Brother Gerald Wrote:  Put God, or watermelon as you wish, yet what power doth a watermelon have? None by it's self. Why It can't even live without a vine or dirt or liquid. Yet God needs nothing and still has unlimited power.

Watermelons exist; I can see them and touch them. With god, that same method to test "existence" is a bit tricky - there is nothing there.

Uttering gibberish like "He was formed into God by God thus we have the Word was God and the Word (which was God) with God, the God that formed Him" doesn't make him magically appear Wink

You are right that he doesn't magically appear, yet He shall appear. With God, He is always there. Just like when a person puts on the right set of glasses, they can see things clearer than without them, when you have eyes to see God, He is there. To get those eyes, you must believe. Evidently you do not believe, therefore you have no eyes to see God, and that is why to you is it gibberish.
(09-14-2017 07:00 AM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  
(09-13-2017 11:13 PM)Brother Gerald Wrote:  
(09-13-2017 06:20 AM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  
(09-12-2017 09:33 AM)Brother Gerald Wrote:  
(09-12-2017 05:01 AM)Imprecise Interrupt Wrote:  What is the basis for you saying that Jesus was 'formed into the Word of God', and what does that mean? Did you mean something like 'formed by' or 'formed from'?

I believe He was formed into God by God thus we have the Word was God and the Word (which was God) with God, the God that formed Him. According to Isaiah 43:10 there was only one God formed.

In most ancient religions in that region, gods did not exist forever. They came into being, and some of them went way, sometimes killed by other gods, existing only in the primeval past. This is what ‘forming’ is all about, that the stories of the other religions have gods coming and going. In Isaiah 43, the Lord is saying that he is the only God, not part of a coming and going pantheon. No preceding or following gods. No gods at all except the Lord.

Quote:Isaiah 43
9
All the nations gather together
and the peoples assemble.
Which of their gods foretold this
and proclaimed to us the former things?
Let them bring in their witnesses to prove they were right,
so that others may hear and say, “It is true.”
10
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.

11
I, even I, am the Lord,
and apart from me there is no savior.
12
I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—
I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “that I am God.
13
Yes, and from ancient days I am he.

‘Forming’ is therefore a fiction, something that applies to non-existent gods of false religions.

This would appear to rule out Jesus being God (or a god of any kind) and being created at some definite time, since this would involve forming another god. The Lord said that did not happen and will not happen.

And John 1:1? and 1:14. I know what you are saying, yet there is too much in the scriptures. Philippians 2: 5 and 6 is just a little salt.

Here are the passages you referenced.

Quote:John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.
[…]
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Philippians 2
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

John says that the Word was in the beginning, not that the Word was formed or that anything was formed into the Word. In v.14, John has the Word become flesh. You could say that the Word was formed into flesh, but not that the Word itself was the result of forming. In Philippians, a pre-existing Christ made himself into human form.

Nowhere in these passages do we see Jesus saying he was created or any indication that he was formed into the Word of God, as you claimed earlier. Nor is there anything to contradict my analysis of Isaiah 43 above.

And again, Jesus said He was created. Rev. 3:14. And again let's go back to Isaiah 43:10 When He said before me there was no God formed, What in your opinion was before God?
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10-31-2017, 09:41 PM (This post was last modified: 10-31-2017 09:44 PM by Tas-10.)
Post: #45
RE: YHWH/Allah is not El Elyon and not the Father of Jesus
(08-10-2017 01:44 PM)Eloh Wrote:  I am writing this post to make aware and discuss ancient non-monotheistic Biblical beliefs. Ba'al Hadad was the model for the early version YHWH despite the negative view of Ba'al, but it might because Ba'al Hadad died in the Canaanite Myth and the Israelites couldn't handy the they're God being call dead by the Canaanites who were worship the son of , but I think Ba'al Hadad faked his "death".
Baal is the son of El Elyon, and had a mother Asherah who would later become his consort. YHWH has been found in archeological artifacts to have once been believed to be Asherah's consort.
EL Elyon was both the Canaanite and Israelite Most High God. YHWH was even believed to be one of 70 offspring of El:
"When El Elyon gave the nations as an inheritance, when he separated benei(sons/members of) Adam(the Man/mankind), he set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the benei(sons/members of) El(God)/Elohim(National-Godkind/National-Pantheon). For YHWH's portion was his people; Jacob was the lot of his inheritance."
(You cannot ever inherit something from yourself. I use El/Elohim because different versions of the dead sea scroll.)
"Obey, O Israel! YHWH of our Elohim(National Pantheon), YHWH first!" - Deuteronomy 6:4
"And when the men of Ashdod saw that it was so, they said, The ark of Elohei(the National God of) Yisra'El shall not abide with us: for his hand is sore upon us, and upon Dagon of our Elohim(National Pantheon)." - 1 Samuel 5:7
"For thy Maker is thine Ba'al; YHWH Tzva’os(Yahweh of Armies) is his name; and was thy "Redeemer" O Holy Israel; Elohei Kol HaAretz(the National God of all the land) shall he be called." - Isaiah 54:5
"But now, YHWH, you art our father; we are the clay, and you our potter; and we all are the work of your hand." - Isaiah 64:8
Note that the Jews had already made El Elyon and YHWH/Baal both into one God. Also sin can mean two different thing, to miss the point or be in the wrong.
"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever do sin is the slave of sin. And the slave abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the Slanderer, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a lying god? Jesus answered, I have not a lying god; but my Father I honour, and ye do dishonour me. And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a lying god. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that God himself is yours: Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." - John 8:31-59
"For YHWH of your Elohim is Elohei Elohim, and Adonei Adonim, HaEl Gadol haGibbor with haNorah, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:" - Deuteronomy 10:17

Regarding YHWH not being Jesus’ Father, the Bible actually states otherwise.

The God of ancient Israel, was the God of the Jews in Jesus’ day, known as Yahweh, ie., YHWH.

And Jesus told Martha @ John 20:17, “I am ascending to my God and your God, to my Father and your Father.

Take care.
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