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a simple question never answered
03-04-2009, 11:48 PM
Post: #1
a simple question never answered
bism ilah al rahman al rahim

i have talked to many christians in my life about the following subject but for some reason no one gives me a clear or convincing or logical answer ... so i guess i am gonna try to find answers here:

i have always learned that when a book is about a certain subject, it talks about it almost throughout the whole book.
example: a book called "theory of evolution" is surely to be talking about the theory of evolution directly or indirectly throughout the whole book.

my problem is that christianity is based on the deity of Jesus christ...
(you can talk about teaching men to be good people etc... but in the end the deity of Jesus Christ is what separates christians from other religious points of view)

my question is: if christianity is based on the deity of Jesus Christ, then why doesn't he say it clearly not even once in the bible???
straight up: i am God or worship me?
why do we have to go through the bible and only come up with the following:
"I and the father are one"(in some other passage he says I and the disciple are one, if the first verse means that he is God doesn't the second one mean that the disciples are God too?)
"before ibraham i was".

oh and please don't use any of the stuff said by people other than christ, i want to know why HE never claims it.

and in the end, thanks to anyone who is going to reply to me, i really appreciate the time you give me.

Diga
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03-05-2009, 02:02 AM
Post: #2
RE: a simple question never answered
if you read it many times he tells you,i am the way and the life,the only way to the father is through me.also with the miracles he performed which has never been done before or since shows you God was with him.

Good evil salvation
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03-05-2009, 02:30 AM
Post: #3
RE: a simple question never answered
so if i can get a magician to do some new trick never before seen he must really be god?

"Perhaps you've seen them only then you've just believed
And when they're fleeing then you feel you've been deceived
But in that feeling something ancient's been retrieved"
-Jack Hardy
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03-05-2009, 02:57 AM
Post: #4
RE: a simple question never answered
yes he was ahead of his time obviously with so many tricks,were did he learn them.?

Good evil salvation
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03-05-2009, 10:59 AM
Post: #5
RE: a simple question never answered
dogaxox, firstly, welcome to the forums. Smile Jesus (May His Glory shine forth) did claim to be God on more than one occasion as you have exemplified. He backed these claims up with actions also. In the Old Testament we have 'Who but God alone can tell the wind and waves to be still/Quiet the storm' Paraphrased, and in the New Testament we have Jesus doing exactly that.

Moreover, He was put on trial and crucified for this very reason. When asked if He claimed to be The Son of God His response was simply that His accusers proclaimed by their own actions that He was. At which point the Chief Priest asked what more evidence they needed since He was claiming equality with God.

Then we have the post resurrection scene where Jesus enters the room where the disciples are hiding and Thomas places his fingers in Jesus wounds, this because Thomas refused to believe that Jesus had risen from the dead without that. On doing this Thomas kneels and says, 'My Lord and My God' and Jesus responds, 'Blessed are you Thomas because you have seen and believed, but more blessed are they that have not seen and yet believe.'.

It is important to note that not once does Jesus stop Thomas worshiping Him, nor does He try to correct Thomas by saying anything like 'Don't worship me because God alone is worthy to be worshiped' We see that Jesus is receiving the worship which would be in direct contravention of the first commandment = 'Hear Oh Isreal! The Lord thy God, The Lord is one! and though shalt have no other gods before Him, and though shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all they soul and with all thy strength and only Him shalt thou serve/worship. unless Jesus were in fact God.

Now if Jesus accepted worship which is only due to God and was/is not Himself God then He cannot legitimately even be called a prophet of God because He broke the first commandment in receiving worship. Yet Muhammed (May his name, person & declaration truly be seen and understood in the light of God) declares that Jesus is.

"Love is not a feeling, it's an act of your will." Don Francisco.
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03-06-2009, 02:33 AM (This post was last modified: 03-06-2009 02:41 AM by digaxox.)
Post: #6
RE: a simple question never answered
(03-05-2009 02:02 AM)smellycat Wrote:  if you read it many times he tells you, i am the way and the life,the only way to the father is through me.also with the miracles he performed which has never been done before or since shows you God was with him.

bism ilah al ra7man al ra7im,
first i dont believe in the bible to be the exact words of God, however i still ask the question of why doesnt Jesus call himself God.

Quran 3:31: Say: "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
Allah= God
this is the same thing as what you mentioned, the Quran is telling us that if you love God you must follow Mohamad, this is similar to " i am the way and the life,the only way to the father is through me" yet Mohamad never claimed he was God, and Jesus also never says it in the bible

you talk about miracles Jesus performed, mohamad performed miracles too:
he fed an army of over 1000 person from a chicken and some rice, and when they all ate, the chicken and rice were almost untouched.
water came out of his hand
he split the moon
he went from macca to jerusalim and up to heaven then went back really quickly (his place were he sat before he left was still warm)
that and other miracles too!!!!
yet we know that miracles are simply performed by the will of God... all he has to do is tell it to be and it shall be.

yet you never answer my question, why does Jesus never says it clearly that he is God and why doesn't he say it frequently. christianity is based on the deity of Jesus yet he doesnt say it clearly or frequently...
doesn't that mean that you are assuming he is God?

thanks for your time :o)
(03-05-2009 02:30 AM)Urthred Wrote:  so if i can get a magician to do some new trick never before seen he must really be god?

i agree with what you say,
however prophets were known for being of great virtues (honesty, trustworthy, just...) and they needed proof that they are sent by God, that is why God gave them miracle.
if you see a bad man doing something out of the ordinary, then you can't believe he is a prophet.
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03-06-2009, 03:33 AM
Post: #7
RE: a simple question never answered
Christ says he is the way and the light.john the baptist tells people of his coming.God says this is my son with whom i,m well pleased.if Christ needed character witnesses i think he got the best.as for being God ,he was God in in the flesh for these reasons ,he says the father is with him,the father is spirit,he tells people that satan has no hold on him,no part in him.all answers are in scripture.

Good evil salvation
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03-06-2009, 03:43 AM (This post was last modified: 03-06-2009 03:46 AM by digaxox.)
Post: #8
RE: a simple question never answered
thanks for the warm welcome,i understand where you are coming from, however, men cannot split seas, God is the one capable of splitting the sea... does that mean that Moses is God?
men cannot turn a piece of wood into a snake, does that make Moses God?

Allah=God
Quran 2:117 To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is.

Quran 40:78 We did aforetime send apostles before thee: of them there are some whose story We have related to thee, and some whose story We have not related to thee. It was not (possible) for any apostle to bring a sign except by the leave of Allah. but when the Command of Allah issued, the matter was decided in truth and justice, and there perished, there and then those who stood on Falsehoods.

Quran 3:49 "And (appoint him "Jesus Christ") an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

key words here:
(He saith to it: "Be," and it is.)
(It was not (possible) for any apostle to bring a sign except by the leave of Allah.)
(by Allah's leave)(by Allah's leave)

so when Jesus makes the wind get still, it is simply God saying to it: "Be," and it is. it is simply happening by Allah's leave.

mohamad split the moon and got water pouring out of his hand. is he God? (cause i don't know any man who can do that) no it is happening by God's leave... He saith to it: "Be," and it is.

about the crucifiction thing and him claiming to be God... he never claims he is God and if you provide the verse you are talking about that says(which you won't find) : i am God, i am divine, worship me... it would really be helpful.

this is what the chief priest said, it is not what Jesus says... everyday we see men talking about Jesus or the stuff he performed as being made up figure/actions... does that mean he never existed???


Then we have the post resurrection scene where Jesus enters the room where the disciples are hiding and Thomas places his fingers in Jesus wounds, this because Thomas refused to believe that Jesus had risen from the dead without that. On doing this Thomas kneels and says, 'My Lord and My God' and Jesus responds, 'Blessed are you Thomas because you have seen and believed, but more blessed are they that have not seen and yet believe.'.

you mentioned the thomas thing...
i will use a verse from the same chapter:
John 20:17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
my God and your God, my God (yes, my God) and your God
again, my God and your God.
this is clearer then what you talk about Thomas..
Jesus is saying my God. how can you say my God when you are God?
i wont get into the speculations of Thomas...
cause that is what it is, speculations!!!!

muhammed never declares Jesus to be God, and whoever told you that miss informed you, here is one of the verses where Jesus is called a prophet:
Quran 2:136 Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."

all i am asking for is an explanation on why is a book based on the deity of Jesus doesn't contain a verse where Jesus calls himself God... that is all i really need to know from you...
(03-06-2009 03:33 AM)smellycat Wrote:  Christ says he is the way and the light.john the baptist tells people of his coming.God says this is my son with whom i,m well pleased.if Christ needed character witnesses i think he got the best.as for being God ,he was God in in the flesh for these reasons ,he says the father is with him,the father is spirit,he tells people that satan has no hold on him,no part in him.all answers are in scripture.

where does God says this is my son please provide a reference.

and all i am asking for is an explanation on why is a book based on the deity of Jesus doesn't contain a verse where Jesus calls himself God by saying i am God or worship me, that is all i really need to know from you...
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03-06-2009, 07:11 AM (This post was last modified: 03-06-2009 08:08 AM by Pilgrim.)
Post: #9
RE: a simple question never answered
digxox Wrote:Then we have the post resurrection scene where Jesus enters the room where the disciples are hiding and Thomas places his fingers in Jesus wounds, this because Thomas refused to believe that Jesus had risen from the dead without that. On doing this Thomas kneels and says, 'My Lord and My God' and Jesus responds, 'Blessed are you Thomas because you have seen and believed, but more blessed are they that have not seen and yet believe.'.

you mentioned the thomas thing...
i will use a verse from the same chapter:
John 20:17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
my God and your God, my God (yes, my God) and your God
again, my God and your God.
this is clearer then what you talk about Thomas..
Jesus is saying my God. how can you say my God when you are God?
i wont get into the speculations of Thomas...
cause that is what it is, speculations!!!!

muhammed never declares Jesus to be God, and whoever told you that miss informed you,

Actually I never said that Muhammed (May his name, person & declaration be seen & understood truly in the light of God) said that Jesus was God. You have misaprehended my friend. What I actually said was that Muhammed declares Jesus to be a prophet which Jesus can't be if he accepts worship as He did in Thomas's case. Such things are not speculations but simple logic. Moreover when you refer to John 20 but go back aways to John 14 verse: 8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Your problem is the comprehension of the Trinity. If Moses had claimed divinity then your argument would hold true but he did not. Jesus by contrast did and thusly His acts were those of God. I will continue below with further evidence of Jesus claims as backed up by both the Old & New Testaments...

Here I submit scriptural evidence of Jesus claims. It should be born in mind that to understand what Jesus is claiming one must understand both the Old & New Testament's declarations concerning who the Christ actually is and this can only be done by taking the whole thing in it's entirety using a correct hermenutic and exigesis of both. That done it becomes more than clear that Jesus is in fact claiming divinity of Himself.

To help you with the concept of the Trinity and Trinitarianism I submit this,
Wikipedia Wrote:To support Trinitarianism, Bible exegetes cite references to the Trinity, to Jesus as God, and both to God alone and to Jesus as the Savior.

The diverse references to God, Jesus, and the Spirit found in the New Testament were later systematized into the idea of a Trinity – one God subsisting in three persons and one substance – in order to combat heretical tendencies of how the three are related and to defend the church against charges of worshipping two or three gods.[20] The doctrine itself was not explicitly stated in the New Testament and no New Testament writer expounds on the relationship among the three in the detail of that later writers do. Thus, while Matthew records a special connection between God the Father and Jesus the Son (e.g. 11:27), he falls short of claiming that Jesus is equal with God. (cf. 24:36).[20]

The most influential New Testament text was the reference to the three Persons in the baptismal formula in 28:19); other passages also were seen as having Trinitarian overtones, such as the Pauline benediction of 2 Corinthians 13:14.[5]

The Gospel of John starts with the affirmation that in the beginning Jesus as Word "was with God and ...was God" (John 1:1) and ends with Thomas's confession of faith to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28).[20] There is no significant tendency among modern scholars to deny that these two verses identify Jesus with God.[23] The same Gospel suggests the equality and unity of Father and Son.[24] But it also suggests a hierarchy ("The Father is greater than I"),[25], a statement appealed to by Marcionism, Valentinianism, Arianism and others who denied the Trinity.

Summarizing the role of scripture in the formation of Trinitarian belief, Gregory Nazianzen argues in his Orations that the revelation was intentionally gradual:

The Old Testament proclaimed the Father openly, and the Son more obscurely. The New manifested the Son, and suggested the deity of the Spirit. Now the Spirit himself dwells among us, and supplies us with a clearer demonstration of himself. For it was not safe, when the Godhead of the Father was not yet acknowledged, plainly to proclaim the Son; nor when that of the Son was not yet received to burden us further.[26]

Quote:References to the Trinity

A few verses directly reference the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit:

Matthew 3:16–17: "As soon as Jesus Christ was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and landing on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, 'This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.' " (also Mark 1:10–11; Luke 3:22; John 1:32)

Matthew 28:19: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (see Trinitarian formula). (It has been claimed that writings of Eusebius show the mention of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to have displaced a request by Jesus that his disciples baptize people in his name,[27] but all manuscripts of the Gospel of Matthew contain, without any variation, the mention of the Trinity.)[28]

2 Corinthians 13:14: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you."

1 John 5:7–8: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (This is the controversial Comma Johanneum, which did not appear in Greek texts before the sixteenth century.)

Luke 1:35: "The angel answered and said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.' "

Hebrews 9:14: "How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!"

Acts 7:55:"But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God."

Wikipedia Wrote:Jesus as God

Many verses in Isaiah, John, the epistles, and Revelation imply support for the doctrine that Jesus Christ is God and the closely related concept of the Trinity. The Gospel of John in particular supports Jesus' divinity. This is a partial list of supporting Bible verses:

Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." together with John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." and

John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known."[29]The Bible says "God the One and Only" in NIV.

John 5:21 "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it."

John 8:23–24: "But he continued,'You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins.'"

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth", Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"[30]

John 10:30: "I and the Father are one."

John 10:38: "But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

John 12:41: "Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him."—As the context shows, this implied the Tetragrammaton in Isaiah 6:10 refers to Jesus.

John 20:28: "Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!'" Due to the strict laws of Moses concerning blasphemy, Jesus and all of the apostles in the room were obligated to put Thomas to death for the blasphemy of calling a man God, unless that man truly was God. Jesus was similarly prohibited from receiving the worship of men as God, unless he was God. Thus the response of Jesus and others in the room indicates that all of them believed Jesus to be God, not only Thomas.

Matthew 28:17: "When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some were doubtful." Under the Law of Moses, no man could allow others to worship him as God - this being considered blasphemous. Jesus allowed his followers to worship him, indicating that Jesus believed himself to be God.

Quote:Philippians 2:5–8: "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross!"

Colossians 1:15: "He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God"

Colossians 1:16: "For by him [Jesus] all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him."

Colossians 1:17: "He [Jesus] is before all things, and in him all things hold together."

Colossians 2:9: "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form"

Titus 2:13: "while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ."

Hebrews 1:8: "But about the Son he [God] says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom."

1 John 5:20: "We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life."

Revelation 1:17–18: "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades." This is seen as significant when viewed with Isaiah 44:6: "This is what the LORD says—Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

The King James Version of (1 Timothy 3:16) reads, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" (emphasis added). Critical editions of the Greek text consider that there is the highest degree of probability that the word "God" (θεός) was not in the original text, and modern versions omit the word, so that Jesus is not called God in this passage.[28]

The Bible also refers to Jesus as a man, which is in line with the Trinitarian concept that Jesus was fully human as well as fully divine which is expressed through the theological concept of kenosis.

God alone is the Savior and the Savior is Jesus

The Old Testament identifies the LORD as the only savior, and the New Testament identifies Jesus Christ as God and Savior. These verses are consistent with Trinitarianism, as well as various nontrinitarian beliefs (Binitarianism, Modalism, the Latter-Day Saints' Godhead, Arianism, etc.)

Isaiah 43:11: "'I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.'"

Titus 2:10: "and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive".

Titus 3:4: "But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared", in regard with:

Luke 2:11: "'Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord.'"

Acts 20:28: "'the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.'"

Titus 2:13: "while we wait for the blessed hope-the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ"

John 4:42: "They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man [Jesus] really is the Savior of the world.'"

Titus 3:6: "whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior"
I chose Wikipedia as the most neutral of sources and I hope this helps.

Shalom

Pilgrim Smile

"Love is not a feeling, it's an act of your will." Don Francisco.
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03-06-2009, 09:10 AM
Post: #10
RE: a simple question never answered
Christ himself states only God is truely good,shines on the good and wicked alike.so by this we know that cannot work for humanity,or evil would oppress the good continually.God is not used to evil,and has given his son athority to stop this oppression of the flesh,so our Lord Jesus will judge humanity,but like he said i have come to save .God will not change to bad for bads sake.

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