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do God exist ?
11-21-2009, 03:41 PM
Post: #1
do God exist ?
hi friends
i read this on the net and i wanted to share it with you

"Take a look around you from where you sit. You will notice that everything in the room is ‘made’: the walls, the upholstery, the ceiling, the chair where you sit, the book you hold in your hand, the glass on the table and countless other details. None of them happen to exist in your room of their own accord. Even the simple loops of the carpet were made by someone: they did not appear spontaneously or by chance.

A person who is about to read a book knows that it has been written by an author for a specific reason. It would not even occur to him that this book might have come into being by chance. In the same manner, a person who sees a sculpture has no doubt whatsoever that it was made by a sculptor. And not just works of art: even a few bricks resting on top of one another make one think that they must have been brought to rest just so by someone within a certain plan. Therefore, everywhere where there is an order – either small or big – a founder and protector of this order must also exist. If, one day, somebody came forward and said that raw iron and coal came together to form steel by chance, which in turn constructed the Eiffel Tower again by chance, would not he and those who believed him be regarded as insane?

It is the most unreasonable claim to say that the universe, each point of which suggests the existence of its Creator, has come into being on its own. " from:http://www.harunyahya.com/A_tr.php

so what you think ?

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11-21-2009, 07:52 PM
Post: #2
RE: do God exist ?
I think what you are describing can be called The Contingency Argument, a variation of the First Mover / First Cause argument, and also a modification of the Watchmaker argument. It is not terribly convincing as an argument for God, in my view. Given what we know about matter, energy, physics, and the process of evolution, the idea that small pockets of order (our world, for instance) can arrive from disorder is not so surprising.

There is no need to assume a "founder" or creator when one considers the equilibrium of mass to energy in our universe.

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11-22-2009, 04:30 AM (This post was last modified: 11-22-2009 04:30 AM by derprinz.)
Post: #3
RE: do God exist ?
i think it's hard to accept that the universe come by chance
let's take the evolution theory :
"According to this utterly unbelievable theory, first dust, then soil, stones, waters, mountains and oceans came spontaneously into being in this nothingness devoid of anything of the sort. Later, certain atoms in the mixtures of these came together by chance and brought into being such elements as calcium, phosphorus and carbon. Over millions of years these lifeless elements, completely lacking in intellect, memory, knowledge and consciousness, turned into human beings able to breathe, speak, think, rejoice and mourn, possessed of a soul and memory, with the intelligence, knowledge and consciousness necessary to invent things, and capable of writing libraries full of books.
In other words, under the effects of coincidence over billions of years, accumulations of dust, soil and mud turned into human beings of flesh, blood and soul, capable of building extraordinary factories and producing the latest model of cars in them, of establishing space stations, of constructing palaces, and making marvels of art. To believe that stone and soil could one day turn into human beings as the result of chance is even more irrational and illogical than believing in fairy tales."

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11-22-2009, 09:21 AM
Post: #4
RE: do God exist ?
Why's most of your post in "speech marks", Deprinz? Are you quoting something? Where are you quoting from, is it the same net source you posted?

I can see what your argument is, and it's one that wavered me into agnostic when I first came across it. It casts a good question, but it does not then follow that some sort of God as depicted by most faiths exists. If there is a first cause, it needn't be some sort of deity necessarily.

Although human consciousness does indeed seem incredible, it does not necessarily require a 'God' to have caused it, it could just be a fortunate biological side effect. Our ability to speak is partly due to our brain size development, but also due to our standing upright, which caused our larynx to drop.

This lowering of the larynx also happened to rats when they were made to stand up for long periods in scientific experiments. They can't then speak as they don't have the brain capacity to do so. The larynx dropping could almost be an evolutionary flaw, as it means we can choke.

The move from unintelligent life forms, to those of the homo species, to our present species, homo sapien sapien, took millions of years, and it is plausible that evolutionary development caused this. Language, brain size, and social instincts caused us to deveolop, and we built upon each discovery to eventually develop libraries, etc. We're the only species to display members that have genius. Most humans still act in a quasi 'tribal' way. My personal belief is that it was the development of language which led to how our consciousness has evolved.

It's a nice idea, and I do think it's one of the better arguments for a 'consciousness' beyond our own, but it does not necessarily prove the existence of God, especially in the terms that religious ideology considers the concept of a deity. Your second post was a better argument than the first in my opinion.
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11-22-2009, 03:00 PM (This post was last modified: 11-22-2009 03:10 PM by derprinz.)
Post: #5
RE: do God exist ?
because i quoted it from here; sorry my friend

i think that the idea of coincidence is illogical
because if somehow there were development so human speak how coincidence develop the human to make him hear what other speak ? and vice versa (wavelengths must be compatible)
if somebody told you that the radio in your car was formed as a result of coincidence,what would you say
can you believe that steel evolve to make a car and a radio in it
(by the way human body is more complex then a car)

decades of effort have been spent in trying to generate and reproduce sound that is faithful to the original. The results of these efforts are sound recorders, high-fidelity systems, and systems for sensing sound. Despite all this technology and the thousands of engineers and experts who have been working in this endeavour, no sound has yet been obtained that has the same sharpness and clarity as the sound perceived by the ear.
A human ear never perceives a sound accompanied by a hissing sound or with atmospherics as a HI-FI does; it perceives the sound exactly as it is, sharp and clear.

take a look at the probability of formation of universe by chance here

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11-22-2009, 11:53 PM
Post: #6
RE: do God exist ?
your right in that the human body (or anything living for that matter) is much more complicated than a car, however a car doesn't have the advantages of living things, it doesn't reproduce so there is no possibility for mutation and thus evolution, I realise it was just an example but it's somewhat innacurrate sorry. as for your ccomment about people developing ears to hear people speak, again slightly innaccurate, we would of developed ears first for other purposes (hearing predators/prey approach/flee) and later developed speech, hoped that clarifies some. As for the probabilities, you fail to take into account the length of time available and the amount of chemicals reacting simultaneously, etc. and the key point of that probability statement is that the universe as we know it! has that probability, any other universe could have supported life, we just have no way of imagining the possibilities, as an example the odd's that the specific genetic make-up of your ancestors (dating back 6000 or 60 million years whichever you believe) would eventually develop into you is similarly mind bogglingly unlikely, however the fact that it did means that you are here to ponder this, hope you understand my point Tongue
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11-23-2009, 08:19 AM
Post: #7
RE: do God exist ?
but mutations occur at random, not because it would be convenient to have one.
in addition ,almost every mutation is harmful.
"How can a good effect—evolution to higher forms of life—result from mutations practically all of which are harmful?" (Warren Weaver)
and for people developing ears to hear people speak i said vice versa .
how can they produce wavelengths that can be heard
and does populations sit around for tens of thousands of years, waiting for favorable mutations to occur (and just how does that happen, by the way?), then anxiously guard them until enough accumulate for selection to push the population toward new and useful change?

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11-23-2009, 12:10 PM
Post: #8
RE: do God exist ?
(11-23-2009 08:19 AM)derprinz Wrote:  but mutations occur at random, not because it would be convenient to have one.
in addition ,almost every mutation is harmful.
"How can a good effect—evolution to higher forms of life—result from mutations practically all of which are harmful?" (Warren Weaver)
and for people developing ears to hear people speak i said vice versa .
how can they produce wavelengths that can be heard
and does populations sit around for tens of thousands of years, waiting for favorable mutations to occur (and just how does that happen, by the way?), then anxiously guard them until enough accumulate for selection to push the population toward new and useful change?

The vast majority of mutations that still allow viable offspring have little or no discernable effect until some environmental change causes them to have a net benefit or deficit. And I stress the word 'net'. Malaria immunity and susceptibility to sickle cell anemia involve the same gene. The gene for typhoid immunity causes osteoporosis. There is no such thing as a favorable or unfavorable mutation. It is all environmentally dependent and is generally a mixed bag of results because ultimately it is a change to a recipe, not a blueprint. This is perfectly understandable in the context of cumulative selection (NOT repeat NOT random selection, which is NOT how evolution works). But it is incomprehensible if considered to be part of an intelligent design.
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11-24-2009, 06:27 PM
Post: #9
RE: do God exist ?
(11-21-2009 03:41 PM)derprinz Wrote:  hi friends
i read this on the net and i wanted to share it with you

"Take a look around you from where you sit. You will notice that everything in the room is ‘made’: the walls, the upholstery, the ceiling, the chair where you sit, the book you hold in your hand, the glass on the table and countless other details. None of them happen to exist in your room of their own accord. Even the simple loops of the carpet were made by someone: they did not appear spontaneously or by chance.

A person who is about to read a book knows that it has been written by an author for a specific reason. It would not even occur to him that this book might have come into being by chance. In the same manner, a person who sees a sculpture has no doubt whatsoever that it was made by a sculptor. And not just works of art: even a few bricks resting on top of one another make one think that they must have been brought to rest just so by someone within a certain plan. Therefore, everywhere where there is an order – either small or big – a founder and protector of this order must also exist. If, one day, somebody came forward and said that raw iron and coal came together to form steel by chance, which in turn constructed the Eiffel Tower again by chance, would not he and those who believed him be regarded as insane?

It is the most unreasonable claim to say that the universe, each point of which suggests the existence of its Creator, has come into being on its own. " from:http://www.harunyahya.com/A_tr.php

so what you think ?

Just looking at a book, a building, a watch, etc., does not tell us it had a designer. We believe it had a designer because we have seen people designing books, and buildings, and watches. We have observed with our own senses those who created such things. Thus we know they are designed. This obviously does not apply to the universe, which we have seen no designer for.

The only reason this argument is used is because we have seen designers. If books mysteriously just existed, you would not use them as an example because you would not know. We have never observed the creation of a universe, or a life, or a planet, or anything. Thus, we cannot assume a creator just because one exists.

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11-24-2009, 08:58 PM (This post was last modified: 11-24-2009 08:59 PM by StarStuff.)
Post: #10
RE: do God exist ?
First of all, I think there's something we need to clear up here:

Mutation in this context doesn't mean something big, like being born with a third eye or having a penis on your forehead. We're talking about small things. For example, sometimes a kid will be shorter than either of his/her parents. That's a mutation. Sometimes, a kid will have slightly darker skin tone than either of his/her parents. That's a mutation. Sometimes right handed parents will have a left handed kid. That's a mutation. Sometimes kids have greater intellectual capacity than either of their parents. That's a mutation.

None of these is inherently favorable or unfavorable, they're just mutations. These things happen all the time.

Now, if a particular mutation gives an individual an advantage, that mutation is likely to, over many generations, become dominant in the population.

I'll give an example I gave earlier in another thread (which I for some reason can't find now)

Suppose we have a colony of white mice. For the sake of mathematical simplicity, we will assume that each generation begins with 100 mice, that of those 100 50 will survive long enough to reproduce, and that they reproduce at a rate of 2:1, giving us a stable population.

Suppose that one day, due to genetic mutation, a brown mouse is born in this colony, so we have 99 white mice and one brown mouse. This mouse's darker color makes him much harder for predators to spot, virtually guaranteeing that he will be among the 50 mice surviving long enough to reproduce. So our next generation starts with 98 white mice and 2 brown mice.
Then we have 94 white mice and 4 brown mice.
Then 92 and 8.
Then 84 and 16.
Then 68 and 32.
Then 36 and 64.
And then the white mice are gone. The colony of white mice has evolved into a colony of brown mice.

Again, this is much more simplistic than what we would see out in the real world, it's just a demonstration of the concept.

That this happens is not theory, but observable fact. This is how bacteria become resistant to antibiotics.

So, having demonstrated that advantageous traits will become dominant within a population over time, let's expand on this a bit.

Suppose we have a colony of apes. Some, due to simple genetic mutation, have stronger hind legs than the others, allowing them to stand tall on only their hind legs. This gives them several advantages; it leaves their hands free to perform other tasks; it allows them to reach higher, which could make it easier to get food in some circumstances. It allows them to appear larger and more intimidating. So over time, these stronger back legs become dominant within the species.
With their hands free, they can do all kinds of stuff, the most important among them being that they can build tools. Now, due to simple genetic mutation, some of these apes are smarter than others. Those who are smarter are able to build better tools, so increased intelligence becomes dominant within the species over time. And this is continuous; they don't hit a certain level of intelligence and then stop, they keep getting smarter, as intelligence is ALWAYS an advantage.
Eventually, they get smart enough to realize that they can create clothing out of animal furs. Now that they can keep warm without having to rely on their own fur, the disadvantages of having lots of hair (ie harder to remain clean, leading to increased incidence of disease) now outweigh the advantages. Over many generations, these apes become less and less hairy.

So eventually we are left with a population of ape-like creatures which lack hair, have great intelligence, and can walk upright on their hind legs. At this point, we no longer call them apes; we call them humans.

In this way, species adapt and change over time without any guiding hand, any creator, any need for intelligent oversight. This process is simply something that happens on its own. In fact, I cannot imagine anything which could STOP evolution from happening in some form.
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