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has israel evolved
03-10-2009, 09:44 AM
Post: #1
has israel evolved
have jews been outcasts throughout the world.and gone back home.?are you saying this is evolution.?

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03-12-2009, 04:01 AM
Post: #2
RE: has israel evolved
NO IT IS THEFT FROM THE OWNERS.....THEY WERE ARMED GANGS WHO STOLE THE LAND AND STILL THEY DO.....
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03-22-2009, 01:06 AM
Post: #3
RE: has israel evolved
Israel didn't steal any land. God created the land and He gave it to them.
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03-23-2009, 09:33 AM
Post: #4
RE: has israel evolved
God actually didn't do a very good job of getting that land. Well, not of keeping it anyway. Israel was barely a nation before civil unrest split it in two, and then these two states were rapidly conquered. Honestly, if it hadn't been for Paul spreading Christianity, based in Judaism, to the Gentiles Israel would only have been a little footnote in history. But after being conquered, Israel was pretty much done.

It was brought back by a League of Nations mandate to the British. The British allowed Jews to immigrate to Palestine, but still intended to let the Arabs keep their land, which had been their land for nearly 2,000 years by that point (far longer than Israel ever had it.) It was the UN who demanded a partition, and called on the British to make it. In bloody conflict the partition was made anyway, without any Arab input.

Don't get me wrong, I think talk of annihilating Israel is terrible, and a clear example of extremism gone too far, but I can understand why the Arab nations are a little peeved.
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03-24-2009, 05:11 AM (This post was last modified: 03-24-2009 05:20 AM by Pilgrim.)
Post: #5
RE: has israel evolved
(03-23-2009 09:33 AM)GTseng3 Wrote:  God actually didn't do a very good job of getting that land. Well, not of keeping it anyway. Israel was barely a nation before civil unrest split it in two, and then these two states were rapidly conquered. Honestly, if it hadn't been for Paul spreading Christianity, based in Judaism, to the Gentiles Israel would only have been a little footnote in history. But after being conquered, Israel was pretty much done.

It was brought back by a League of Nations mandate to the British. The British allowed Jews to immigrate to Palestine, but still intended to let the Arabs keep their land, which had been their land for nearly 2,000 years by that point (far longer than Israel ever had it.) It was the UN who demanded a partition, and called on the British to make it. In bloody conflict the partition was made anyway, without any Arab input.

Don't get me wrong, I think talk of annihilating Israel is terrible, and a clear example of extremism gone too far, but I can understand why the Arab nations are a little peeved.
Actually GT your facts are slightly scewed here. The British opposed the immigration of Jews into Palestine and refused to partition the land but had to give up their governance of the area due to the same type of terrorism now being perpetrated against Israel. Yet they still sought to frustrate Palestinian plans for a sovreign state in the area. They turned the whole matter over to the UN because they wanted out of Palestine. The UN resolution to partition was overwhelmingly voted in the positive the Muslim nation members of the UN at the time unanimously voted in the negative. Result? Own goal against the Palestinian people perpetrated by their Muslim neighbours. Then when the Jews were attacked by both the British and the Egyptians they decided to go on the offensive in self defence, hardly suprising considering how recent history had treated them. They won despite the odds, declaring the foundation or re-establishment of Israel as a Sovreign nation. Had the Egyptians and the British left them alone we might not have the troubles in that area manifest as they are today. That apart it is remarkable to say the least, that Israel has not been religated as you noted. Personally, I would point to this as an indication of God's existence and plan for Israel made manifest by divine intervention. Especially since the spread of Christianity is directly attributable to the existence and death of a humble Jewish carpenter. Quite incredible.

"Love is not a feeling, it's an act of your will." Don Francisco.
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03-24-2009, 09:41 AM
Post: #6
RE: has israel evolved
The British put limits on the immigration of Jews, but they allowed it (especially wealthy Jews, which were able to ignore the quotas.) The entire area is an example of big nations interfering with little nations, to their great detriment.

But, and this is beginning to be my catchphrase, despite being interesting these events are far from unique. Wallachia managed to hold out for a remarkably long period of time against the Ottomon Turk Empire, despite having little support from Christendom and facing overwhelming odds (under the reign of Vlad Dracula, called the Impaler, who is still considered a hero in some parts of Romania for keeping the Turks out.) America won independence in 1776 against staggering odds, and maintained that independence every since. Afghanistan (with foreign support) managed to be a thorn in the side of the former Soviet Union. The Greek city-states defeated the Persians, at that time the largest and most scientifically advanced army in the world. A practically untested Chinese king managed to conquer all his neighbors, uniting China and ending the Warring States period. Unlikely military victories happen, it's part of the history of the world. That doesn't prove God, it just proves that numbers don't always decide a battle.

Israel happens to be a fairly easily defended country, and it's also never suffered full invasion from a superpower, but instead from states that are only a little larger than it. It's initial struggle for independence is fascinating, but since that time they have maintained some of the highest standards for military training in the world. In addition, these were people fighting for a culturally accepted homeland, which is a strong motivator.

Oh, and Jesus was never humble. He preached to thousands of people, committed acts of civil disobedience (rarely, and not frivolously as he proved by giving unto Caesar what is Caesar's, but it still happened,) claimed to be God, let twelve people follow him around full-time just to learn from his wisdom and thousands more follow him for shorter spans, and managed to annoy an entire nation, which simply does not happen if you are humble. Jesus was a public figure, charismatic and influential, just like many other public figures who have accomplished similar feats.
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03-24-2009, 12:08 PM
Post: #7
RE: has israel evolved
Whilst interesting, the examples given of parity were not prophesied hundreds of years in advance of the events which kind of makes Israel the exception. That aside I'd have to say pretty good going for a backwoods Carpenter with no formal religious education. One would logically have expected Him to go the way so many before Him did. Unless of course He differed from them in some significant way.

"Love is not a feeling, it's an act of your will." Don Francisco.
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03-24-2009, 05:59 PM
Post: #8
RE: has israel evolved
Jesus had formal religious education. Most Hebrew children did (and many traditional Jewish families still send their children to "Hebrew School". That's the whole point of the scene with Jesus in the temple when he was 12. Not only did he receive a formal religious education from the foremost masters of Judaism, he excelled at it.

As for prophecies, now you're getting a bit dodgy. Prophecies can always be interpreted to fit the circumstances involved (lets take biblical apocalyptic prophecies, which are my favorite. These have been translated to fit the Roman sacking of Jerusalem, world war two, the Gulf war, the Iraq war, and countless wars and dates in between. Pre-millenial rapture fundamentalists believe that things such as television, atomic warfare, and the European Union are clearly spoken of in Revelation. On the other hand, amillenialists believe that Revelation was fulfilled during the Roman sack of Jerusalem, and has little to do with future events.) The prophecies of Israel are not very clear, but what IS clear is that God gave Israel that land for eternity.

So, the first thing we learn is that this promise was broken for about 2,500 years, and was only reinstated very recently. That's not a very good track record. Furthermore, Israel does not, nor has it EVER inhabited the full extent of the land given it in the Torah. Interpreting prophecy is very much a "gotcha" sort of art. Anything that has happened, "Ah! Gotcha! That fulfills a prophecy so there must be a God!" No matter how much you have to mangle the facts to fit the prophecies (the Gospels themselves regularly misquoted Old Testament prophecies, and referenced prophecies that never appeared in the Old Testament). And if a prophecy clearly doesn't happen, then you have the, "Oh, well that just hasn't happened yet."

The amount of logical wrangling to fulfill prophecy is incredible. For instance, the Messiah is clearly referred to, many times, as a warrior, who will lead an army and conquer the land. Often the Messiah is referred to as such the verse after a prophecy that Christians claim Christ fulfilled. Yet when asked about this, Christians hem and haw about one of two things, either "not taking the prophecies literally" (in which case, in my opinion, they're useless because we can make them say whatever we want,) or "the second coming," which hasn't happened yet and as far as we can tell won't happen. And if these prophecies refer to the second coming, then why are they immediately after, and sandwiched between, prophecies that Christians claim were fulfilled the first time Jesus showed up?

The "prophetic" nature of Israel has been used as an excuse for the United States to support several operations that can only be described as terrorist against the Palestinians. Rather than truly seek peace in the region, trying to work an understanding, most Americans (especially Christians) are willing to write the region off, saying that the Jews and the Arabs are prophesied to be at each other's throats. Isaac and Ishmael, Jacob and Esau, these guys must always struggle. And rather than play mediator and try to bring some peace to the region, it's gotten to the point where Presidential candidates must assure the voters that they will support Israel no matter what, or else suffer stigma (McCain supporters tried to use this against Obama, who was quick to assure everyone that he was a friend of Israel.)

Seriously, the Middle East is bad enough without religious nuts trying to say that some cosmic battle of good and evil is being played out there. The Jews aren't good, and the Arabs aren't evil, they're just people living in militant cultures with thousands of years of conflicts. It's time to close up the Bibles, and start actually seeking peace.

Sorry, that sort of turned into a rant there. But this is an issue that just really gets me, when Christians use "prophecy" as an excuse to mangle history and politics, to justify actions that are violent and detrimental to the human race.
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03-25-2009, 08:19 AM
Post: #9
RE: has israel evolved
i imagine he would exell in it.lol.

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03-26-2009, 12:38 AM
Post: #10
RE: has israel evolved
wow, this has really veered off topic!
GTSeng3 -You have brought up some good points but let me help you clarify some things up.
First off - God didn't have to "get that land" or "keep it". He created it. He gave it to the nation of Israel, for a place for them to live after their time in Egypt. Yes, they did divide and were conquered but I'm not sure what you mean by "rapidly". What are you comparing their existance too?

Secondly - The land that makes up Israel today (what you reffered to as the land given to them by the League of Nations) is not what God had promised them. Their sin has prevented them from taking full possesion of that land but the prophesy that Pilgrim is refering to (I think) is the fact that Israel is a recognized nation once again. You do realize that has never happened to any other nation before right (being disbanded and then reunited[praise God]?

Thirdly - You admit that Israel was conquered but then you say that it was never by a superpower? America is the first and has been the only superpower by definition but Babylon was big and then the land after that was occupied by the Persians and the Greeks.

Lastly - you drag Jesus through the mud but you don't have any ground to stand on there. Jesus is humble. He is God and the fact that He offered His life, shows ultimate humility. Just because He preached to thousands doesn't mean that He wasn't humble. It's not like He only would speak if thousands were there! He spoke to a lone samaratin woman by a well. No "religious" Jew would do that in those times. What civil disobedience do you reference? The table turning in the temple? I think not since the pharisees were in the wrong and defiling the temple. There is no fault in claiming to be God, if that is who you are.

As for me, I support Israel, because God supports Israel. Not because they are "good" and the Arabs are "evil". Israel isn't good...only God is good anyway.
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