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i,m starting an anti satan group
03-16-2009, 08:36 PM
Post: #1
i,m starting an anti satan group
can you please tell me what you hate about satan.?

Good evil salvation
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03-17-2009, 09:54 AM (This post was last modified: 03-17-2009 09:57 AM by sesame.)
Post: #2
RE: i,m starting an anti satan group
Coz Allah said in Quran:-

"O mankind! Eat of that which is lawful and wholesome in the earth, and follow not the footsteps of the devil. Lo! he is an open enemy for you. (168) He enjoineth upon you only the evil and the foul, and that ye should tell concerning Allah that which ye know not. (2:169)"

"The devil promise you destitution and enjoin on you lewdness. But Allah promise you forgiveness from Himself with bounty. Allah is All-Embracing, All-knowing. (2:268)"....
AND THIS A QUESTION FROM A CHRISTIAN GUY AND THE ANSEWR:-
Question
Hi I am not Muslim but would like to ask quite a basic question about Islam. Is there an equivalent of the Christian idea of the Devil in Islam?
Thanks

[color]Answer[/color]
Hello Craig

Yes...the Quran mentions Iblis or shaitan..."the devil" as being haughty and proud when God orders him to bow down to man...Iblis isnt actually a fallen angel as usually depicted in the movies but rather a Jinn made of Fire. Iblis assumes that fire is much more powerful and therefore better than man and so feels no need to bow down to him. For his defiance of Gods order he is thrown out of Gods presence(not necessarily heaven as we believe) and ordered to wait for Judgement Day like all human beings. Iblis accepts his punishment but vows to stand on the paths of men and lead them astray with whisperings and double talk...God accepts this but warns him that he will only be allowed to lead astray those that have no belief in God or fear of Judgement Day....as true believers in God will not heed the whisperings of the "Devil". Iblis agrees that he will have no power over those that turn their backs on evil....but those that accept an evil life will be easy pickings and more numerous than the pious ones. On the Day of Judgement when those that were lead astray point to Iblis as the blame for their evil acts...he will tell them straight...did I order you to follow me...did I force you to follow me...did I promise you any reward in the next life if you follow me...so even at the end of our lives we will try and blame the devil for our mistakes....but really we are to blame for whatever evils we do.

At any rate,...I hope that answers your question.
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03-27-2009, 02:35 AM
Post: #3
RE: i,m starting an anti satan group
Sesame -
yea, that just confuses me and has nothing to do with the TC post. Actually, I wish GTSeng3 would see your post and then he would have to believe that Islam is far different than Judaism and Christianity.

Questions about your answer to Craig -
1)why on numerous occasions do you say "the devil" in quotations?
2)why did God have the devil bow down to man?
3)could Iblis reject his punishment?
4)do muslims believe in angels? and was iblis created by god?
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03-27-2009, 06:25 AM
Post: #4
RE: i,m starting an anti satan group
it,s called Christians,do you think it will catch on,lol.

Good evil salvation
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03-27-2009, 08:01 AM
Post: #5
RE: i,m starting an anti satan group
Actually, Paul, the story of Iblis is very similar to the story of the Christian devil. Jewish myth says that was the incident that sparks the falling of Samael, who became the devil. After God created mankind, he ordered all his angels to bow down before man, because man was His chosen creatures and angels just created servants. Samael refused, saying that he would only bow down before God, and in refusing to obey God's command he committed rebellion and was cast out of heaven.

You won't find that story in the Bible, but it's part of what I generally call Jewish "fairy tales," which were stories that filled in a lot of the gaps in between Adam and Noah.

Muslims do believe in angels (in fact, they often believe in the same angels as Christians did. Not being tied to Israel, Michael does not have as prominent a position since Michael was specifically an archangel over Israel, but they see Gabriel as an archangel of great importance. The main difference is that rather than saying that their devils are fallen angels, they have them as evil Jinn under Shaitan (if I recall correctly. I'm not quite as familiar with Islam as I am with Christianity, though I have read through a translation of the Qu'ran.)
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03-30-2009, 01:08 AM
Post: #6
RE: i,m starting an anti satan group
So then Iblis is more along the lines of the Kabbalah rather than Judaism?
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03-30-2009, 07:55 AM
Post: #7
RE: i,m starting an anti satan group
The religions are all wrapped up in each other. Islam used Judeo-Chrsitianity as a basis for its beliefs, just as Christianity used Judaism as a basis for its beliefs (that much can be accepted even by hardcore Muslims and Christians.)

Now, we atheists see other connections - the fact that there are so many names for God, and other passages in Genesis that involve idols in Abraham's family and such lead us to believe that the Jews were originally polytheistic. At some point, most likely during the Egyptian captivity (which occurred during or near to the resurgence of the Atun-cult which denied the other Egyptian gods,) they began believing in one God, but they still acknowledged the presence of other Gods (Ba'al and Dagon and such were considered real to them, just evil.) Then they were taken into captivity by the Assyrians and the Babylonians, and then by the Persians. Now the Persians practiced Zoroastrianism, the very first true monotheism, meaning that they believed there was only one God and that all other gods were lies and did not exist. It is at this point that mention of these other gods cease completely in the Bible, showing that Judaism was affected by Zoroastrianism and became truly monotheistic.

Obviously Jews and Christians tend to disagree with that interpretation, as it assumes that Judaism changed and didn't always worship the same God, but rather evolved, but I don't think Jews and Christians would have any trouble believing that other, non-Judaic religions evolved . . . they just want to believe their own is true and always has been.
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03-30-2009, 08:03 PM
Post: #8
RE: i,m starting an anti satan group
Nice weaving job there Gtseng3. Except for the fact that the facts are not there. It makes perfect sense that Judaism is a "basis" for Christianity since Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. I'm not sure what atheist writing you bought all that information out of, but I know you didn't get that from the Bible.
I guess you are going to say that Moses changed the story of the patriarchs to fit a monotheistic belief because the book of Genesis does not contain any of your interpretation.Yes, Abraham's family made mistakes with idols but that doesn't change who God is. Those in Israel who went after other gods were punished by God over and over again.
The reason that Jews and Christians would have trouble believing that their faith has "evolved" is because it is based off of the fact that God doesn't change. He is eternal and the God of the Old Testament is still very much that same God today.
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03-30-2009, 08:21 PM
Post: #9
RE: i,m starting an anti satan group
(03-30-2009 07:55 AM)GTseng3 Wrote:  Now, we atheists see other connections - the fact that there are so many names for God, and other passages in Genesis that involve idols in Abraham's family and such lead us to believe that the Jews were originally polytheistic. At some point, most likely during the Egyptian captivity (which occurred during or near to the resurgence of the Atun-cult which denied the other Egyptian gods,) they began believing in one God, but they still acknowledged the presence of other Gods (Ba'al and Dagon and such were considered real to them, just evil.) Then they were taken into captivity by the Assyrians and the Babylonians, and then by the Persians. Now the Persians practiced Zoroastrianism, the very first true monotheism, meaning that they believed there was only one God and that all other gods were lies and did not exist. It is at this point that mention of these other gods cease completely in the Bible, showing that Judaism was affected by Zoroastrianism and became truly monotheistic.

As far I know, this idea of the origins of Judaic monotheism in Egyptian captivity were first put forward by Sigmund Freud. Unfortunately, it has little historic merit. One leading anthropological theory, which I find more compelling, is based on a series of letters between Egyptian diplomats and Pharaohs and a Canaanite representative called the Amarna letters. The Canaanite official complains about a nomadic hill tribe called the Apiru or Habiru raiding and looting several cities. The description of the Habiru people in some ways mirrors descriptions of known Hebrew traveling practices and descriptions of armies led by Saul, Joshua, and David - or at least people known as Habiru fighting under those figures. So the idea is the Hebrews were never slaves in Egypt, but a nomadic warrior people (possibly polytheistic) who came from the hills in the west, raided and occupied some Canaanite cities, and forged their own city states, later developing their own brand of monotheism over time as the consequence of events.

The problem is that depending on the context, the Akkadian word Habiru or Apiru can also mean roving bands of displaced mercenaries or migrant workers. Undoubtedly, many Biblical scholars have been perhaps too eager to draw the connection between the similarity of name. In any event, I find your suggestion of Zoroastrian influences more plausible.

It's also important to remember, as you've already hinted, that it wasn't until Babylonian captivity that several older texts and oral traditions were compiled into the Torah, the five books of Moses. This was also a period when new ideas were beings introduced. Among those commonly attributed to this time are Satan and the resurrection of the dead.

I suppose this is all a pretty long winded way of saying I agree with you and that it's impossible to point to one supposed historical coincidence and say, "This is the origin of Jewish monotheism." Rather, it was most likely an evolution of traditions from polytheism to henotheism and finally into the idea of one supreme God of all creation - all influenced by historical events and cultural interactions over the course of thousands of years.

If truth is one, it is not possible for something to be scientifically false and religiously true.

-Baha'u'llah
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03-30-2009, 08:58 PM
Post: #10
RE: i,m starting an anti satan group
The main idea of the original polytheism as I understand it is because of several passages that indicate that Terah and Sarai had idols in their household, a practice not specifically condemned in Genesis. Others, such as Rachel (if I recall correctly) also had idols. In addition the various minor tribes are often referred to in Genesis as giving praise to God, or referencing God, or things such as that, when we know that they were actually polytheistic people.

So the general idea is that the Hebrews, too, were polytheistic, just like their surrounding cultures (after all Terah and Abram were from Ur, smack dab in Mesopotamia,) but that by the time the Torah was written (in Moses's time or later) the Hebrews were already monotheistic to a degree, at least in so far as only worshiping one of the many gods, so the old stories were just edited to only reference one god.

Of course, in large part this suffers from the same problem most anthropologists have with the Bible - it's only one source. So it's validity as a historic document has to be questioned, and that works both ways, for atheists and for Christians. So a lot of this is just speculation and will probably never be known for certain.

Regardless, though, Islam and Christianity having the same God and the same religious basis is something everyone should be able to agree on. Christians just think Muslims corrupted it, while Muslims think Christians didn't get it right.
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