vitality

[Yefet]

It is clear to anyone that something brings the body to life. The body itself is nothing more than a container
Because when one dies, God forbid, the body remains as it was. The arms are still here, the head and eyes are still here but it is devoid of any function, there are no more smells , sight , or hearing the outside enviorment has no effect on it
Every living thinking thing understands when this happens that there is no more love , pain, pleasure, joy or regrets
The actual vitality was the identity of that person, it what we remember once its gone all that left is a bag of bones that will rot away
This vitality is what the Hebrews called the soul, more to the point the nefesh or the life force, the body only becomes animated when paired with the nefesh which contains all the powers of vitality, Sight, hearing, feeling or emotions in other words consciousness
Since mans body is nothing more than a small world ,it would appear that by simple observation, that everything is in constant motion, all the revolutions of the stars and planets, even the atomic and subatomic particles, are in constant movement .
Just like our body without Nefesh HaBahamis things cannot move on there own, not the rotation of plants or even the so called subatomic particles without some force directing or causing this movement and the moment this force takes leave or no longer effects matter, the matter becomes still or dead
Is this unacceptable or to simple or to far outside scientific explanation for some ? In other words why is this line of thinking wrong?

[Flipper]

(04-23-2012 06:44 PM)Yefet Wrote:  It is clear to anyone that something brings the body to life. The body itself is nothing more than a container
Because when one dies, God forbid, the body remains as it was. The arms are still here, the head and eyes are still here but it is devoid of any function, there are no more smells , sight , or hearing the outside enviorment has no effect on it
Every living thinking thing understands when this happens that there is no more love , pain, pleasure, joy or regrets
The actual vitality was the identity of that person, it what we remember once its gone all that left is a bag of bones that will rot away
This vitality is what the Hebrews called the soul, more to the point the nefesh or the life force, the body only becomes animated when paired with the nefesh which contains all the powers of vitality, Sight, hearing, feeling or emotions in other words consciousness
Since mans body is nothing more than a small world ,it would appear that by simple observation, that everything is in constant motion, all the revolutions of the stars and planets, even the atomic and subatomic particles, are in constant movement .
Just like our body without Nefesh HaBahamis things cannot move on there own, not the rotation of plants or even the so called subatomic particles without some force directing or causing this movement and the moment this force takes leave or no longer effects matter, the matter becomes still or dead
Is this unacceptable or to simple or to far outside scientific explanation for some ? In other words why is this line of thinking wrong?

The only criticism that I can come up with at the moment is that even though a organism maybe dead, it is still constructed of atoms which are constantly in motion even if the overall substance that it is a component of is non-living.

My question is, from your perspective, does this vitality continue to exist beyond the death of the body it inhabits or can it also only exist when pair with a corporeal body?

[jrpurdon]

(04-23-2012 06:44 PM)Yefet Wrote:  Is this unacceptable or to simple or to far outside scientific explanation for some ? In other words why is this line of thinking wrong?

I don't know if it's wrong, but it seems like you are just describing energy.

[Yefet]

Ok, lets call it energy, the point is there is nothing in the universe that is stationary, even the atoms, move after life as we know it,
Even something as simple and well studied as the weather,it is dependant on the movement of the planets, the moon, sun ect. our entire planet is dependant on this energy or movement. if these movements were bigger, faster, slower or smaller than necessary, our world as we know it would be thrown into chaos, it could be as simple as a drought or total destruction But, because the sun, moon and planets, are just as alive with movement as anything else in the universe, including the human body it would appear by reasonable deduction that there must be a controlling energy, the first cause, which is the life force and the life force of everything else in the universe. This energy it would appear to make the world tick, as well as it makes our heart beat, this Energy, from my perspective, is always there reguardless of the vessel in which it forces into motion, to explain this, atleast in Hebrew one must know the difference between heyulie and Ko’ach. Its kind of like the differance between an ability and potential, Say you want to do something good, like give money to the homeless, The thought of this act came from the nature of your soul to do a kind act, it was not in the movement of your hand, even though the kindness was revealed through the movement of your hand , the same with the soul after death, the faculties, thought, emotion, sight ect always exist in the soul, as they are, unrelated to the body, the influx of nefesh , the part that enlivens the body, is just one of the many abilitys of the soul, In the soul itself, before joining the body nothing has come out into being, yet. which includes all the things we call life, in a way of heyulies or abilities. So to say the soul lives after death to Hebrew thinking is not quite the same,
Again this is a rather simplistic explaination for energy but no matter how you look at it, it always comes back to the point where there is something that causes everything to be in motion, we know this from the laws of action and reaction and science is working hard to discover it but the Hebrews knew it, felt it, again this may be simple thinking, perhaps.

[thomasj6299]

The idea that this bag of bones, the body can actually contain and sustain life, is laughable. I don't know what atheist believe Yefet. I have heard some atheist say that once the body dies, that's it, we are no more.

So what is the force?, the body?, or the vitality/life/energy? What brings this motion?

For me it is not complicated, Life, Energy, Vitality, Spirit, Soul and God are the same, It brings motion to the body.

It is clear that the body is subject to the laws of time, as it is constantly moving toward it's end.

Where is the essence of me? or you? the person we are?

What about this Energy? does it also get old and rot? I have my belief of what happens, but I am sincerely curious as to the atheist view on this matter.

[Yefet]

Everything as far as we know, including time is a created thing. All matter including the universe, is limited. A physical thing, it has to be by definition, It is three dimensional. It has length, width and depth. Anything with length, width and depth is measurable and therefore limited. This means that the universe has a beginning and an end. And as such is nothing compared to what was before it or after it. All existence, as we know it is literally insignificant It does not have to exist. It has to have some force or energy imposed upon it that causes movement in the first place, something that is above time. Common sense would dictate that there must be a constant energy(thanks JR, I like this word) pushing everything ,including the human body into existence or movement at all times, science as far as I know does not dispute this

[chucknance]

(04-23-2012 10:56 PM)Yefet Wrote:  Everything as far as we know, including time is a created thing. All matter including the universe, is limited. A physical thing, it has to be by definition, It is three dimensional. It has length, width and depth. Anything with length, width and depth is measurable and therefore limited. This means that the universe has a beginning and an end. And as such is nothing compared to what was before it or after it. All existence, as we know it is literally insignificant It does not have to exist. It has to have some force or energy imposed upon it that causes movement in the first place, something that is above time. Common sense would dictate that there must be a constant energy(thanks JR, I like this word) pushing everything ,including the human body into existence or movement at all times, science as far as I know does not dispute this

I believe the universe is antithetical to heaven. The reason is Satan. Satan's prison must be a temporary in order to elminate him. Whereas God and his angels are eternal, in the universe, except for the brief time in paradise, God's earthly creatures are mortal. As you stated, science has examined subatomic particles and discovered them to be in constant motion.

Human bodies decay with time and have no substance beyond their biological and psychological forms. Except for human concern and record keeping, the process of living and dying are the same for humans and infra-human species.

Before time, matter and energy (the big bang) there was no change, no aging, and no matter. Old Testament prophets witnessed heavenly objects made of non-material substance. Science has measured how matter, vis-a-vis subatomic structures, changes, transforms, and decays. I believe Heavenly substances have no subatomic structure and are in a world devoid of physical laws.

As for heavenly objects and substances, we have eyewitness accounts from OT prophets. Since then, we have nothing. It was as if God had assumed a policy of nonintervention. Except for Revelation, there have been no miraculous events or sudden occurrences of angels or heavenly scenes since the brutal murder of Jesus (God).

[Elgonzero]

(04-23-2012 09:42 PM)thomasj6299 Wrote:  The idea that this bag of bones, the body can actually contain and sustain life, is laughable. I don't know what atheist believe Yefet. I have heard some atheist say that once the body dies, that's it, we are no more.

So what is the force?, the body?, or the vitality/life/energy? What brings this motion?

For me it is not complicated, Life, Energy, Vitality, Spirit, Soul and God are the same, It brings motion to the body.

It is clear that the body is subject to the laws of time, as it is constantly moving toward it's end.

Where is the essence of me? or you? the person we are?

What about this Energy? does it also get old and rot? I have my belief of what happens, but I am sincerely curious as to the atheist view on this matter.

Really interesting thread Yefet.

I'm not sure that there is "an athiest view" on this matter. Personally, as something of a materialist, I think its quite possible that we are a moving bag of bones, so to speak.

I don't think that anything "brings our bodies to life". Our bodies are created (inside our mothers womb) in motion from living cells which multiply. Energy comes initially from what is provided through the placenta and later from eating food. Eventually something goes wrong and we die.

The heart is just a very effective pump that responds to electrical stimuli. If it stops indefinitely we will die. If somebody gets there to administer CPR or use a defribulator there is a chance that we will not die. This is a fairly simple mechanical solution to prevent death which does not conspicuously appear to require any treatment for the "spirit".

Whilst there is no comprehensive proof to deny existence of the soul, we can see that peoples personalities, priorities and attitudes can change dramatically following a trauma to the head. Physical damage leading to this kind of change strongly suggest a connection between the function of the brain and what might be commonly perceived as the "essence" of who we are. Drugs can also change our attitudes towards things. If you try to take this into account in providing a definition of what the "spirit" or "soul" is, or what it does it seems you are left with something that seems to me to be very vague.

[Yefet]

My first reaction is to ask what caused the living cells to multiply, and what was the cause or first movement that started the electrical stimuli, Its rather like which came first the chicken or the egg.
The essence, to us anyway, is not the person, because we clearly see what is left of the physical body but as I said in another thread it is the Seder Hishstalshelut or chaining down and that is what Kabblist study by way of deep concentration and how it effects a person
every effect of a drug has an equal effect on the structure of the chemical make up, the structure of Eitz HaChayim or tree of life which we study through the the ten sefirot which believe comes from Shem Ha’Etzem, or the essence of the source of the energy and everything is contained there though not revealed all at one time, something that is the cause of all movement
This may very well be a simple way of thinking, and the reason I asked if this thinking is unacceptable or to simple but it has never failed me in figuring out who or what I am
The whole concept of super beings and Devils and flying angels with wings, and how we are to think is lost on me but I can see how my simple thinking can be lost on, shall we say, a more modern scientific mindset though somehow I fail to see the differance

[Elgonzero]

Hi Yefet, My previous post was a bit of a balancing act, trying to respond to Thomas's post, whilst also hopefully addressing elements of the OP. I think perhaps I failed a little with regards to the different definitions of "essence" or the soul etc. Hopefully I can make up for that here.

(04-24-2012 10:41 AM)Yefet Wrote:  My first reaction is to ask what caused the living cells to multiply, and what was the cause or first movement that started the electrical stimuli, Its rather like which came first the chicken or the egg.

My first reaction to this was to cringe at the thought of my parents having sex. Perhaps this says more about my warped mind than anything else.

A lot of this is explained to my satisfaction by saying "intrinsic properties of cells" alot. The cells that form the heart (myocytes) will beat on their own. If cultured in a laboratory the many cells will start to beat together rhythmically in unison. Interestingly (I just learnt this), the input from the central nervous system comes along later and only affects the rhythm of the beats. I don't think it is entirely understood what causes the cells to beat by opening and closing its ion channels, but it seems to be related to certain strands of DNA.

Cell multiplication is a key requirement of life. Ultimately to me this is all about how living cells arrange themselves into a structure determined by their DNA, which if successful may survive to pass on part of the DNA.

(04-24-2012 10:41 AM)Yefet Wrote:  The essence, to us anyway, is not the person, because we clearly see what is left of the physical body but as I said in another thread it is the Seder Hishstalshelut or chaining down and that is what Kabblist study by way of deep concentration and how it effects a person
every effect of a drug has an equal effect on the structure of the chemical make up, the structure of Eitz HaChayim or tree of life which we study through the the ten sefirot which believe comes from Shem Ha’Etzem, or the essence of the source of the energy and everything is contained there though not revealed all at one time, something that is the cause of all movement

This may very well be a simple way of thinking, and the reason I asked if this thinking is unacceptable or to simple but it has never failed me in figuring out who or what I am

The whole concept of super beings and Devils and flying angels with wings, and how we are to think is lost on me but I can see how my simple thinking can be lost on, shall we say, a more modern scientific mindset though somehow I fail to see the differance

I'm not at all sure how simple your thinking is. I think it is quite possible that your thinking is compatible with most if not all science. My problem is that I just don't at this point understand Kabballah well enough to make any informed judgements about if or where it falls short.

From your OP I guess my main area of concern relates to the idea that something "brings the body to life" and that this same thing (nefesh) is responsible for conciousness, feelings and emotions. If I have got this right, the suggestion is that nefesh enters or arises within the body and leaves or disappears at death (please feel free to correct the details).

To me, I'm not sure at what point conciousness kicks in, but I feel that the continuous presence of living cells in the reproductive process and development of a foetus suggests it is not necessarily about creating a lifeless container that is ready to be kick started by the insertion of life force.

What do you make of the example I gave of somebody being revived after a heart attack? What was the nefesh doing during the period inbetween the heart attack and being revived, and why would an electrical impulse or CPR restore it?

Or the example of a brain trauma? If the nefesh is responsible for feelings or emotions, why would these change in these circumstances? It may be something to do with the sephirot, as you mentioned with drugs? If so, is there a description or link that you could provide that can summarise the relationship between them?

Does this make sense? I look forward to your answers and I will hopefully learn a thing or two about Kabballah in the process.