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Venedi · 07-21-2010, 04:14 PM

(07-21-2010 08:03 AM)Vesuvius Wrote:
(07-21-2010 01:24 AM)Venedi Wrote: From what I've heard, the caste system is part of Indian culture, but not actually related to Hinduism. Muslims and Christians in India sometimes also oberve it. Hinduism has four varna, which are determined by a person's ability and nature. The later caste system was a different concept altogether. There was mobility between the different classifications in the old days. It was actually during the British Raj that the caste system became static and uniform throughout all of the different regions of India. There is every indication that the caste system as we know it cannot be considered an integral part of Hindu dogma.

That's historical revisionism that the Hindu right wing and Brahmins would like everyone to believe. The historcal facts point towards the Indo-European, light-skinned, Hindu northern Indians as starting the caste system to subjugate the dark-skinned, Proto-Dravidian speaking south Indians.

Hinduism is simply a form of social control disguised as religion. I see people using Hinduism daily in India to oppress and hurt other people.

Here's a link to a documentary that has been banned in India. It's called "The final solution," and it's about Hindus ruthlessly slaughtering their non-Hindu neighbors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5WwZ8pnIls

The situation in India is violent on all sides. Muslims are killing Hindu's too. Even Christians have been involved in some attacks. Look up the National Liberation Front of Tripura. Considering that Christianity has been in India since almost its very beginning, and that it existed peacefully in India for most of the time up until now, I doubt the post-colonial resentment toward it can be considered integral to Sanatana Dharma. What you are doing is assigning all of India's modern problems to Hinduism.

What exactly that I said is revisionism? Please specify, as I know some of it was not. Even an ancient Greek source writes that there was mobility in caste when they came to India, as if indications from Hinduism's own texts like the Bhagavad Gita weren't enough. Considering this, it's no surprise that genetic studies done on all castes show considerable mixing and shared genetic origins.

Vesuvius · 07-22-2010, 11:05 AM

(07-21-2010 04:14 PM)Venedi Wrote:
(07-21-2010 08:03 AM)Vesuvius Wrote:
(07-21-2010 01:24 AM)Venedi Wrote: From what I've heard, the caste system is part of Indian culture, but not actually related to Hinduism. Muslims and Christians in India sometimes also oberve it. Hinduism has four varna, which are determined by a person's ability and nature. The later caste system was a different concept altogether. There was mobility between the different classifications in the old days. It was actually during the British Raj that the caste system became static and uniform throughout all of the different regions of India. There is every indication that the caste system as we know it cannot be considered an integral part of Hindu dogma.

That's historical revisionism that the Hindu right wing and Brahmins would like everyone to believe. The historcal facts point towards the Indo-European, light-skinned, Hindu northern Indians as starting the caste system to subjugate the dark-skinned, Proto-Dravidian speaking south Indians.

Hinduism is simply a form of social control disguised as religion. I see people using Hinduism daily in India to oppress and hurt other people.

Here's a link to a documentary that has been banned in India. It's called "The final solution," and it's about Hindus ruthlessly slaughtering their non-Hindu neighbors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5WwZ8pnIls

The situation in India is violent on all sides. Muslims are killing Hindu's too. Even Christians have been involved in some attacks. Look up the National Liberation Front of Tripura. Considering that Christianity has been in India since almost its very beginning, and that it existed peacefully in India for most of the time up until now, I doubt the post-colonial resentment toward it can be considered integral to Sanatana Dharma. What you are doing is assigning all of India's modern problems to Hinduism.

What exactly that I said is revisionism? Please specify, as I know some of it was not. Even an ancient Greek source writes that there was mobility in caste when they came to India, as if indications from Hinduism's own texts like the Bhagavad Gita weren't enough. Considering this, it's no surprise that genetic studies done on all castes show considerable mixing and shared genetic origins.

I'm not assigning all of India's modern problems to Hinduism. I'm merely stating that the religion has been of no benefit to modern India. In the three years I have lived in South India I have seen many conversions from Hinduism to Islam and Christianity, where people wanted to escape the harsh caste system of Hinduism. I read the daily news in the papers and the statistics don't lie.

Over 160 Million people in India face horrible abuses still for being "untouchable." Statistics from India's National Crime Records Bureau show that yearly over 25,455 crimes are committed against Dalits. Every hour two Dalits are assaulted; every day three Dalit women are raped, two Dalits are murdered, and two Dalit homes are torched.

These are Hindus abusing Hindus in the name of their own religion.
Historical records show us that this caste system was in place in the times of Alexander the Great. What makes you think that people were somehow less prejudiced in ancient times? There is no proof that the caste system was somehow a peaceful, beneficial thing for the "untouchables" in ancient times.

You are claiming Hindu is "great." I am saying it is like many religions....not great enough to stop its own people from killing each other.

Venedi · (This post was last modified: 07-23-2010 06:08 AM by Venedi.)

(07-22-2010 11:05 AM)Vesuvius Wrote: I'm not assigning all of India's modern problems to Hinduism. I'm merely stating that the religion has been of no benefit to modern India. In the three years I have lived in South India I have seen many conversions from Hinduism to Islam and Christianity, where people wanted to escape the harsh caste system of Hinduism. I read the daily news in the papers and the statistics don't lie.

Over 160 Million people in India face horrible abuses still for being "untouchable." Statistics from India's National Crime Records Bureau show that yearly over 25,455 crimes are committed against Dalits. Every hour two Dalits are assaulted; every day three Dalit women are raped, two Dalits are murdered, and two Dalit homes are torched.

These are Hindus abusing Hindus in the name of their own religion.
Historical records show us that this caste system was in place in the times of Alexander the Great. What makes you think that people were somehow less prejudiced in ancient times? There is no proof that the caste system was somehow a peaceful, beneficial thing for the "untouchables" in ancient times.

You are claiming Hindu is "great." I am saying it is like many religions....not great enough to stop its own people from killing each other.

I'm not sure what to tell you on the matter of history. It's plain that the different regional caste systems were made more rigid and homogenized in colonial times. Most early texts say little about it. You talk about "the caste system" being in place in ancient times, but you don't appreciate the ambiguity historians face in defining it in all of its variety across the whole of old India.

Here is what the Greek Megasthenes wrote about the organization of classes in India. It is recognizable from this, and many other examples, that there were many different conceptions of caste in India. Much of it is clearly custom and societal structure, not religion.

"The whole population of India is divided into seven classes, of which the first is formed by the collective body of the Philosophers, receive valuable gifts and privileges."

"Then next to these come the farmers, these being the most numerous class of Indians...-

The third class of Indians are the herdsmen, pasturers of sheep and cattle...-

The fourth class is of artisans and shopkeepers-...

The fifth class of Indians is the soldiers' class, next after the farmers in number...-

The sixth class of Indians are those called overseers. They oversee everything that goes on in the country or in the cities; and this they report to the King...-

The seventh class is those who deliberate about the community together with the King.

All benign enough, isn't it? Just a local way of dividing profession. Much like a guild. That was the original intent, at least. The Persians had a similar division, proving that the Aryans didn't simply invent lower casts to find a place to put Dravidians. After all, there would have been Aryan craftsmen and commoners as well. Dalits were handlers of dead bodies or sewer-cleaners, or people of some stigmatized profession. Outside of the cities, the countryside superstitions about these people are still strong. Is this about religion though, or is it a matter of class? The distinctions between the two did not blur until the Manusmrti, which the British may have treated as universal Indian law, but many in India before then had not.

The hard feelings between people of different Jati class is just the natural result of lots of different cultural or ethnic identities in one country. In general, none consider themselves inferior, and often, they consider others, sometimes even Brahmin, to be the untouchables. It's a matter of identity, which India has in great variety and abundance. There have been Hindu attempts to be more accepting to Dalits.

We're talking about plain old human racism here. Some of them show it to Dalits, and some show it to Northeastern Indians as well because they sometimes have a mongloid appearance. I can tell you that there have been some very devout xenophobic Christians as well, in western nations. What of it? As I have said, some Christians in India, like those in Goa, still adhere to the caste system. A 1992 study of Catholics in Tamil Nadu found some Dalit Christians faced segregated churches, cemeteries, services and even processions. Despite Christian teachings these Dalit also faced economic and social hardships due to discrimination by upper-caste priests and nuns. Is this a failure of Christianity?

princecarspian · 07-23-2010, 10:57 AM

Hindu is the great because Hinduism, one of the great religions of the world, teaches man the virtues of piety, unity and harmony," he said adding, ‘Hindus, true to their religion, have been living for ages in amity and harmony with followers of other religions

Vesuvius · 07-26-2010, 10:56 AM

I'm sure some Hindus have lived in amity and harmony with their fellow humans and followers of other religions. Other Hindus, when they had the power and resources, conquered and slaughtered their fellow men in the name of Hindu Gods. Some Hindus live in peace, today, in India, and treat everyone with respect. A good many Hindus don't live that way.

I've seen little proof that Hinduism has any more benefits or makes its followers somehow more peaceful and virtuous than followers of other religions or even non-religious people.