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Zagreus · 12-23-2009, 06:02 PM

(12-23-2009 12:27 PM)wisdom007 Wrote: Thanks let me check if Sefer Yetzirah is available online ...

I found this:

http://pdfdatabase.com/index.php?q=aryeh...tzirah+pdf

I've not downloaded from them before, so run a virus check over it if you use them.

If you want general legal and online religious stuff, check out http://www.sacred-texts.com/ There are a few Kabbalah bits in the Judaism section, but they are largely from the early part of last century.

wisdom007 · 12-24-2009, 09:14 AM

Thanks alot Zagreus...

alhzn74 · 12-29-2009, 03:01 PM

Thanks for the Sketch?
Do Christians believe in Kabbalah, like Jews?

Zagreus · 12-29-2009, 06:05 PM

(12-29-2009 03:01 PM)alhzn74 Wrote: Thanks for the Sketch?
Do Christians believe in Kabbalah, like Jews?

Some do, though as far as I'm aware it's not really that popular. It was popular in the Middle Ages, and it was linked in with Hermetic thought and Alchemy, but no so much nowadays. It was tied in with Christian mysticism, and people would investigate the notariqon INRI, for example.

itsme · 01-03-2010, 07:22 AM

(12-29-2009 03:01 PM)alhzn74 Wrote: Thanks for the Sketch?
Do Christians believe in Kabbalah, like Jews?

Oh, yes!

biomystic · 01-14-2010, 10:27 PM

Jesus' wisdom saying that by their fruits ye shall know them is such a handy tool for discerning mumbo jumbo from real spiritual guidance. Just what have those who follow the Jewish Kabbalah ever contributed to society besides Madonna? And where did the Kabbalah symbolism arise from if not from the same Greco-Egyptian sources that inspired Jewish-Christian Gnosis?

I'm sorry but the Kabbalah is highly overrated in my opinion. Kabbalah like classical Gnosticism and Pythagorean systems are playthings for people who have too much time on their hands. Knowledge without action is useless and so we see no more evidence of Kabbalah affecting the advancement of either Jewish or human society than Theosophy did. Esoteric knowledge is for those who want to believe spiritual knowledge rests in an artificial hierarchal relationship of Master or Guru with secret knowledge to naive disciple when those who set themselves up as such show no historic proof of superior contribution to society. For example, it was chemists, not alchemists, who went on to advance human knowledge of chemistry and it will be social leaders who advance humanity, not mystical rabbis. What great spiritual knowledge of rabbis has led to a flowering Jewish state of Israel? None that can be seen. By their fruits ye shall tell the real agents of God from charlatans.

Venedi Sporoi · (This post was last modified: 01-17-2010 05:10 AM by Venedi Sporoi.)

(01-14-2010 10:27 PM)biomystic Wrote: Jesus' wisdom saying that by their fruits ye shall know them is such a handy tool for discerning mumbo jumbo from real spiritual guidance. Just what have those who follow the Jewish Kabbalah ever contributed to society besides Madonna? And where did the Kabbalah symbolism arise from if not from the same Greco-Egyptian sources that inspired Jewish-Christian Gnosis?

I'm sorry but the Kabbalah is highly overrated in my opinion. Kabbalah like classical Gnosticism and Pythagorean systems are playthings for people who have too much time on their hands. Knowledge without action is useless and so we see no more evidence of Kabbalah affecting the advancement of either Jewish or human society than Theosophy did. Esoteric knowledge is for those who want to believe spiritual knowledge rests in an artificial hierarchal relationship of Master or Guru with secret knowledge to naive disciple when those who set themselves up as such show no historic proof of superior contribution to society. For example, it was chemists, not alchemists, who went on to advance human knowledge of chemistry and it will be social leaders who advance humanity, not mystical rabbis. What great spiritual knowledge of rabbis has led to a flowering Jewish state of Israel? None that can be seen. By their fruits ye shall tell the real agents of God from charlatans.

You and Raphael really must argue some time. Well, Muslims have some fairly impressive fruit to show in the area of advancements made while Europe was in its dark ages. Is this proof of Islam's legitimacy to you?You're also forgetting many important ancient Greek intellectuals you'd probably disagree with. Why, there was the Pythagorean-influenced Aristarchos who was one of the first to suggest Heliocentrism, which was a bit of a riper apple than was seen in Christian Europe for some time. I'm afraid I'm skeptical of judging faiths by how much they contribute to fields of science, or even assuming that any do.

Kabbalah, like many esoteric or mystical teachings, claims to map out something virtually incomprehensible to all but the most initiated and well-suited mind. One can imagine that someone dedicating their lives to this would accomplish little else, but how is that different from a Christian priest who only studies scripture and never gets a family? How much has he accomplished, except for something internal?

biomystic · 01-18-2010, 11:34 PM

Most all higher intellectual production before the scientific revolution got going in earnest in the 1800's was done by theists, by men who believed in God and inspired by God. But it's certainly true that priests represented a Christianity that was divorced from the "real world". It always amazes me that so few Christians put two and two together to realize that Jesus would have never tolerated a priesthood of Catholic "fathers".

"Do not call anyone on earth your father, for One is your Father, He who is in heaven." Mt. 23:9

oops, there goes the foundation of the Catholic church with its Pope (Father) and priests (called fathers). Luckily for Catholics, Christians don't often read Jesus' words as they are too enthralled with Paul's.

Merit · 01-19-2010, 04:23 AM

(01-14-2010 10:27 PM)biomystic Wrote: Jesus' wisdom saying that by their fruits ye shall know them is such a handy tool for discerning mumbo jumbo from real spiritual guidance. Just what have those who follow the Jewish Kabbalah ever contributed to society besides Madonna?

Ben Zion Abba Shaul created a revival among Sephardic Jews

Solomon Eliezer Alfandari fought the draft in Constantinople.

Baruch Ashlag wrote several books of essays, including one laying out a proper approach to social doctrine.

Sarah Horowitz wrote Tkhinne imohes, and spent years giving the poor everything she had.

Arthur Kurzweil has written elven books, founded the Jewish Genealogical Society, and won the Distinguished Humanitarian Award from the Melton Center for Jewish Studies.

biomystic · 01-19-2010, 08:27 AM

(01-19-2010 04:23 AM)Merit Wrote:
(01-14-2010 10:27 PM)biomystic Wrote: Jesus' wisdom saying that by their fruits ye shall know them is such a handy tool for discerning mumbo jumbo from real spiritual guidance. Just what have those who follow the Jewish Kabbalah ever contributed to society besides Madonna?

Ben Zion Abba Shaul created a revival among Sephardic Jews

Solomon Eliezer Alfandari fought the draft in Constantinople.

Baruch Ashlag wrote several books of essays, including one laying out a proper approach to social doctrine.

Sarah Horowitz wrote Tkhinne imohes, and spent years giving the poor everything she had.

Arthur Kurzweil has written elven books, founded the Jewish Genealogical Society, and won the Distinguished Humanitarian Award from the Melton Center for Jewish Studies.

Never heard of them. They didn't make it into the historical record of well-known humanitarians.

And besides, if Jewish mystics cannot tell you where Ezekiel got his inspiration for the Merkabah, what's that tell you about the spiritual authority of the Kabbalah?