Let's clear up some nasty misconceptions

[X_The Todd_X]

(02-27-2010 02:34 AM)Clementine Wrote:  

(02-27-2010 02:04 AM)X_The Todd_X Wrote:  

(01-19-2010 10:26 PM)Clementine Wrote:  

(01-19-2010 10:10 PM)Holy Babylon Wrote:  Isn't Voudooism sometimes used as a supplement to other monotheistic religions?

It's not a supplement. Haitian Vodou is what is called forced syncretic. Most of Haiti was forcibly converted to Catholicism, and thus their worship had to be hidden behind Catholicism, out of fear for their lives. The only way they had to practice their faith was to use the saints and ceremonies as faces for the lwa.

Part of the problem with forced conversion is that it just didn't work and Vodou and similar religions grow out of it.

There are actually record in both Haiti and the US of slaves being forcibly held down to accept the sacrament, and then later, as the syncretism became more common, as they found ways to express their true faith, baptism became synonymous with the lave tet ceremony, and there are records of slaves being baptized four or more times.

Catholicism became evil, but people learned how to worship in their hearts through the forced religion.

At this point, Haitian Vodou is all but impossible to divorce from Catholicism. There are some groups who try, but...it doesn't work.

so is Vodou similar to the Cuban Santería? a mesh of African religion and forced catholicism? and how can one really dissect the differences between the different caribbean faiths... they all really seem to be the same...

Thanks Clem,
The Todd

Very much like, yes. The way to look at the Caribbean faiths is like one would look at an evolutionary or language tree, really.

Santeria started with a Yoruba religion though, mostly in Nigeria, and a little bit in Benin, where Vodou started with a Dahomeyan root religion. They are very similar, and there is some overlap -- but they evolved differently.

Santeria evolved with Hispanic influence and faith, and maintains an actual creator God, who controls the orishas, and the orishas are actually minor gods. magic is much more common in Santeria, as is divination.

Whereas Vodou evolved in a French-Carib-Irish environment, has a pandeistic deity, the lwa are not gods at all, actually humans who were elevated -- and add more lwa as necessary -- Santerian Orishas are "set." None are added and none are removed.

Does that help at all?

more than you probably realize. the bolded statement above did it for me. but now i have to ask, at what point did the tree start? was there an indigenous island religion (that you know of) before the africans, europeans and such? from what i gather the contemporary religions of the islands are various elements of Afro-Catholic faiths, nothing indigenous...

Thanks again,
The Todd

[Clementine]

(02-28-2010 02:57 AM)X_The Todd_X Wrote:  

(02-27-2010 02:34 AM)Clementine Wrote:  

(02-27-2010 02:04 AM)X_The Todd_X Wrote:  

(01-19-2010 10:26 PM)Clementine Wrote:  

(01-19-2010 10:10 PM)Holy Babylon Wrote:  Isn't Voudooism sometimes used as a supplement to other monotheistic religions?

It's not a supplement. Haitian Vodou is what is called forced syncretic. Most of Haiti was forcibly converted to Catholicism, and thus their worship had to be hidden behind Catholicism, out of fear for their lives. The only way they had to practice their faith was to use the saints and ceremonies as faces for the lwa.

Part of the problem with forced conversion is that it just didn't work and Vodou and similar religions grow out of it.

There are actually record in both Haiti and the US of slaves being forcibly held down to accept the sacrament, and then later, as the syncretism became more common, as they found ways to express their true faith, baptism became synonymous with the lave tet ceremony, and there are records of slaves being baptized four or more times.

Catholicism became evil, but people learned how to worship in their hearts through the forced religion.

At this point, Haitian Vodou is all but impossible to divorce from Catholicism. There are some groups who try, but...it doesn't work.

so is Vodou similar to the Cuban Santería? a mesh of African religion and forced catholicism? and how can one really dissect the differences between the different caribbean faiths... they all really seem to be the same...

Thanks Clem,
The Todd

Very much like, yes. The way to look at the Caribbean faiths is like one would look at an evolutionary or language tree, really.

Santeria started with a Yoruba religion though, mostly in Nigeria, and a little bit in Benin, where Vodou started with a Dahomeyan root religion. They are very similar, and there is some overlap -- but they evolved differently.

Santeria evolved with Hispanic influence and faith, and maintains an actual creator God, who controls the orishas, and the orishas are actually minor gods. magic is much more common in Santeria, as is divination.

Whereas Vodou evolved in a French-Carib-Irish environment, has a pandeistic deity, the lwa are not gods at all, actually humans who were elevated -- and add more lwa as necessary -- Santerian Orishas are "set." None are added and none are removed.

Does that help at all?

more than you probably realize. the bolded statement above did it for me. but now i have to ask, at what point did the tree start? was there an indigenous island religion (that you know of) before the africans, europeans and such? from what i gather the contemporary religions of the islands are various elements of Afro-Catholic faiths, nothing indigenous...

Thanks again,
The Todd

I can't answer for Santeria, unfortunately, but with Haitian Vodou, the syncretism was a combination of African traditions, Catholicism, indigenous Carib and Arawak tradition, and Irish beliefs.

After I get back, I'll call my Ifa friend and find out about Santeria.