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X_The Todd_X · 02-28-2010, 02:57 AM

(02-27-2010 02:34 AM)Clementine Wrote:
(02-27-2010 02:04 AM)X_The Todd_X Wrote:
(01-19-2010 10:26 PM)Clementine Wrote:
(01-19-2010 10:10 PM)Holy Babylon Wrote: Isn't Voudooism sometimes used as a supplement to other monotheistic religions?

It's not a supplement. Haitian Vodou is what is called forced syncretic. Most of Haiti was forcibly converted to Catholicism, and thus their worship had to be hidden behind Catholicism, out of fear for their lives. The only way they had to practice their faith was to use the saints and ceremonies as faces for the lwa.

Part of the problem with forced conversion is that it just didn't work and Vodou and similar religions grow out of it.

There are actually record in both Haiti and the US of slaves being forcibly held down to accept the sacrament, and then later, as the syncretism became more common, as they found ways to express their true faith, baptism became synonymous with the lave tet ceremony, and there are records of slaves being baptized four or more times.

Catholicism became evil, but people learned how to worship in their hearts through the forced religion.

At this point, Haitian Vodou is all but impossible to divorce from Catholicism. There are some groups who try, but...it doesn't work.

so is Vodou similar to the Cuban Santería? a mesh of African religion and forced catholicism? and how can one really dissect the differences between the different caribbean faiths... they all really seem to be the same...

Thanks Clem,
The Todd

Very much like, yes. The way to look at the Caribbean faiths is like one would look at an evolutionary or language tree, really.

Santeria started with a Yoruba religion though, mostly in Nigeria, and a little bit in Benin, where Vodou started with a Dahomeyan root religion. They are very similar, and there is some overlap -- but they evolved differently.

Santeria evolved with Hispanic influence and faith, and maintains an actual creator God, who controls the orishas, and the orishas are actually minor gods. magic is much more common in Santeria, as is divination.

Whereas Vodou evolved in a French-Carib-Irish environment, has a pandeistic deity, the lwa are not gods at all, actually humans who were elevated -- and add more lwa as necessary -- Santerian Orishas are "set." None are added and none are removed.

Does that help at all?

more than you probably realize. the bolded statement above did it for me. but now i have to ask, at what point did the tree start? was there an indigenous island religion (that you know of) before the africans, europeans and such? from what i gather the contemporary religions of the islands are various elements of Afro-Catholic faiths, nothing indigenous...

Thanks again,
The Todd

Clementine · 02-28-2010, 07:55 AM

(02-28-2010 02:57 AM)X_The Todd_X Wrote:
(02-27-2010 02:34 AM)Clementine Wrote:
(02-27-2010 02:04 AM)X_The Todd_X Wrote:
(01-19-2010 10:26 PM)Clementine Wrote:
(01-19-2010 10:10 PM)Holy Babylon Wrote: Isn't Voudooism sometimes used as a supplement to other monotheistic religions?

It's not a supplement. Haitian Vodou is what is called forced syncretic. Most of Haiti was forcibly converted to Catholicism, and thus their worship had to be hidden behind Catholicism, out of fear for their lives. The only way they had to practice their faith was to use the saints and ceremonies as faces for the lwa.

Part of the problem with forced conversion is that it just didn't work and Vodou and similar religions grow out of it.

There are actually record in both Haiti and the US of slaves being forcibly held down to accept the sacrament, and then later, as the syncretism became more common, as they found ways to express their true faith, baptism became synonymous with the lave tet ceremony, and there are records of slaves being baptized four or more times.

Catholicism became evil, but people learned how to worship in their hearts through the forced religion.

At this point, Haitian Vodou is all but impossible to divorce from Catholicism. There are some groups who try, but...it doesn't work.

so is Vodou similar to the Cuban Santería? a mesh of African religion and forced catholicism? and how can one really dissect the differences between the different caribbean faiths... they all really seem to be the same...

Thanks Clem,
The Todd

Very much like, yes. The way to look at the Caribbean faiths is like one would look at an evolutionary or language tree, really.

Santeria started with a Yoruba religion though, mostly in Nigeria, and a little bit in Benin, where Vodou started with a Dahomeyan root religion. They are very similar, and there is some overlap -- but they evolved differently.

Santeria evolved with Hispanic influence and faith, and maintains an actual creator God, who controls the orishas, and the orishas are actually minor gods. magic is much more common in Santeria, as is divination.

Whereas Vodou evolved in a French-Carib-Irish environment, has a pandeistic deity, the lwa are not gods at all, actually humans who were elevated -- and add more lwa as necessary -- Santerian Orishas are "set." None are added and none are removed.

Does that help at all?

more than you probably realize. the bolded statement above did it for me. but now i have to ask, at what point did the tree start? was there an indigenous island religion (that you know of) before the africans, europeans and such? from what i gather the contemporary religions of the islands are various elements of Afro-Catholic faiths, nothing indigenous...

Thanks again,
The Todd

I can't answer for Santeria, unfortunately, but with Haitian Vodou, the syncretism was a combination of African traditions, Catholicism, indigenous Carib and Arawak tradition, and Irish beliefs.

After I get back, I'll call my Ifa friend and find out about Santeria.

azurescen · 05-02-2010, 10:29 AM

Voodoo came from the origin of sound. The first musician, it was actually formed around the time of the great flood of Noah. I think that it was probably just an early voodoo spell to cleanse peoples desires.

Voodoo consists of available energies, used in a way to bring about MORE!

Energy is positive, so it literally takes BEINGS to make it negative. The only thing voodoo need do now is over power the negative, lol, something like that. Give us positive people of the planet, now, the power! lol Put those negative people at the spike of their own actions. Voodoo, to me, is a mask for reality. The face of Voodoo being that of something to view as time, because when no one is doing what they do because of "Voodoo", than apparently there is no more need for it!

Clementine · 05-02-2010, 10:20 PM

(05-02-2010 10:29 AM)azurescen Wrote: Voodoo came from the origin of sound. The first musician, it was actually formed around the time of the great flood of Noah. I think that it was probably just an early voodoo spell to cleanse peoples desires.

Voodoo consists of available energies, used in a way to bring about MORE!

Energy is positive, so it literally takes BEINGS to make it negative. The only thing voodoo need do now is over power the negative, lol, something like that. Give us positive people of the planet, now, the power! lol Put those negative people at the spike of their own actions. Voodoo, to me, is a mask for reality. The face of Voodoo being that of something to view as time, because when no one is doing what they do because of "Voodoo", than apparently there is no more need for it!

This is completely incorrect. Voodoo is a religion, concentrated on the worship of God, and the serving of the lwa. Voodoo, in it's earliest roots, came from the Dahomeyan religion in Benin, not anywhere near Noah's great flood, and has little to nothing to do with energy.

azurescen · 05-03-2010, 09:23 AM

(05-02-2010 10:20 PM)Clementine Wrote:
(05-02-2010 10:29 AM)azurescen Wrote: Voodoo came from the origin of sound. The first musician, it was actually formed around the time of the great flood of Noah. I think that it was probably just an early voodoo spell to cleanse peoples desires.

Voodoo consists of available energies, used in a way to bring about MORE!

Energy is positive, so it literally takes BEINGS to make it negative. The only thing voodoo need do now is over power the negative, lol, something like that. Give us positive people of the planet, now, the power! lol Put those negative people at the spike of their own actions. Voodoo, to me, is a mask for reality. The face of Voodoo being that of something to view as time, because when no one is doing what they do because of "Voodoo", than apparently there is no more need for it!

This is completely incorrect. Voodoo is a religion, concentrated on the worship of God, and the serving of the lwa. Voodoo, in it's earliest roots, came from the Dahomeyan religion in Benin, not anywhere near Noah's great flood, and has little to nothing to do with energy.

Than why is the iwa consulted? Isn't a human being an energy?

Don't mix up what I am saying, because truly you do not know what a....black persons reality is.

Religion, is a funny thing to say about Voodoo. I understand they are together about it, but when it was derived from the ability to witness from within another human beings soul. The sight of linkings between souls is what brought the use of the Iwa. And through the Iwa alone, lol, they became the only people with the right idea about how to communicate with the dead. The Mayans did it, only they needed a third party to receive from.

Voodoo, at least, DID contain pure magic. At least until words became a higher medium and magic was kept to feelings of who you are.

I dunno what ALL you know, but when it comes to eyes in a different persons head. Id say at least in the difference between black and white, you have nothing in respects to location. These people were all together one, and yet living all around. Telepathy! And well, thats something that isn't gonna happen for un-happy people.

Truth, voodoo DID make the flood. and yet, it was a spell of clensing, done through both a mixed colored man AND Noah. Just to show how well they could blend into nothingness. And can you really truly say? Can anyone really truly say, when only a few know?

Not to say I have anything special myself, but reincarnation happens!!! And there are certain people throughout time who enjoy THIS moment in life enough to come back. Think the originator of voodoo, and yet for a kicker it was started by a white man on an alien planet. An electric guitar from 4000~ bc, and mushrooms. That started the SOUND magic, that became the Mode of travel for Voodoo.

which, I guess, lol...got strict?

Clementine · (This post was last modified: 05-03-2010 09:37 AM by Clementine.)

Quote:Than why is the iwa consulted? Isn't a human being an energy?

The LWA, are consulted only in matters of morality, other than that, they're not used for consulting purposes.

Quote:Don't mix up what I am saying, because truly you do not know what a....black persons reality is.

What? What are you trying to say here?

Quote:Religion, is a funny thing to say about Voodoo.

Vodou is a religion.

Quote:I understand they are together about it, but when it was derived from the ability to witness from within another human beings soul.

There are no "witnesses" to another persons souls, because such damage to the souls as that would cause, would kill a person in Vodou.

Quote:The sight of linkings between souls is what brought the use of the Iwa.

The lwa are not used, anyone who used them in such a manner would end up dead pretty quickly. The lwa do not tolerate unequal relationships, or being used for what they can do.

Quote:And through the Iwa alone, lol, they became the only people with the right idea about how to communicate with the dead.

Vodou does not communicate to the general dead through the lwa.

Quote:Voodoo, at least, DID contain pure magic. At least until words became a higher medium and magic was kept to feelings of who you are.

I don't think you know what Vodou is at this point. But -- historical proof, got any?

Quote:Telepathy!

Telepathy does not exist in Vodou. It would be considered one of the highest evils.

Quote:Truth, voodoo DID make the flood. and yet, it was a spell of clensing, done through both a mixed colored man AND Noah. Just to show how well they could blend into nothingness. And can you really truly say? Can anyone really truly say, when only a few know?

There is no evidence. And you certainly don't know what you're talking about. I've devoted my life to my religion for years now -- how many intiations have you undergone? What's you're peristyle? Who ws your intiatory mother? Because what you're saying makes no sense in any school of Vodou.

Quote:but reincarnation happens!!!

Reincarnation does not occur in any form of Vodou.

kevlar · 05-03-2010, 09:37 AM

You've been raidin' Raph's stash!

azurescen · 05-03-2010, 10:48 AM

(05-03-2010 09:36 AM)Clementine Wrote:
Quote:Than why is the iwa consulted? Isn't a human being an energy?

The LWA, are consulted only in matters of morality, other than that, they're not used for consulting purposes.

Quote:Don't mix up what I am saying, because truly you do not know what a....black persons reality is.

What? What are you trying to say here?

Quote:Religion, is a funny thing to say about Voodoo.

Vodou is a religion.

Quote:I understand they are together about it, but when it was derived from the ability to witness from within another human beings soul.

There are no "witnesses" to another persons souls, because such damage to the souls as that would cause, would kill a person in Vodou.

Quote:The sight of linkings between souls is what brought the use of the Iwa.

The lwa are not used, anyone who used them in such a manner would end up dead pretty quickly. The lwa do not tolerate unequal relationships, or being used for what they can do.

Quote:And through the Iwa alone, lol, they became the only people with the right idea about how to communicate with the dead.

Vodou does not communicate to the general dead through the lwa.

Quote:Voodoo, at least, DID contain pure magic. At least until words became a higher medium and magic was kept to feelings of who you are.

I don't think you know what Vodou is at this point. But -- historical proof, got any?

Quote:Telepathy!

Telepathy does not exist in Vodou. It would be considered one of the highest evils.

Quote:Truth, voodoo DID make the flood. and yet, it was a spell of clensing, done through both a mixed colored man AND Noah. Just to show how well they could blend into nothingness. And can you really truly say? Can anyone really truly say, when only a few know?

There is no evidence. And you certainly don't know what you're talking about. I've devoted my life to my religion for years now -- how many intiations have you undergone? What's you're peristyle? Who ws your intiatory mother? Because what you're saying makes no sense in any school of Vodou.

Quote:but reincarnation happens!!!

Reincarnation does not occur in any form of Vodou.

Ok, my historical proof comes from....Reincarnated individuals. The originator of voodou actually.

I could give you her name, but, you could also be nice and she will most definitely make her self known.

telepathy=evil? HUh? EVIL!!! is killing, is stealing.....telepathy?? is not even looking at other person...

The difference between what the lwa was and is, is startling. People who practice voodou today are not into the hands on approach as I would put it, so no, magic isn't what they are concerned with more than love. Ok, thats right! Good.

Now, with magic, I have stories that go to the beginning of time. I will say that the reason no one knows, who isn't in a position of being stripped from reality, is the original woman, Eve from adam and eve. lol, original sin had no end with her, and she actually hurt the original black woman to the point that she no longer saw a reason for herself to love her man, who turned just as evil as eve...if not more evil since he was willing to go against her.

Well, thats aside from what Im trying to say, because with this knowledge, it doesn't do much to know that after that time black women went much darker, more evil, and the man was the good part. Today, it is the opposite. And, what Im trying to say about black people is, they experience a different reality! they are allowed to exist in a more free astral realm, they gain clearance through their own knowledge of life....they simply know more about love. As for today, you will find that present in the fact that....on one side we have basically heaven with all the black women, they uphold people in such a selfless way, I know nothing, not even that evil eve has affected anyone negatively.

As for, lol, the black man, we have the exact opposite. A man, who hears you on the inside, and yet....at least now that I know the truth about their evil, basically they cannot do anything about true evil. and they are being put to GOOD!

lol.....Im an explorer, more than an informer, and yet in my team, in this life....which consists of many people, Id like to rest the fact that I will never do wrong.

So with that, lol, there comes a need for clarity to others alone. I dunno man.

The Lwa LIVES!!!!

Clementine · 05-03-2010, 10:59 AM

1. Reincarnation is seen as not possible in Vodou because of the construction of the soul by Bon Dieu.
2. The originator of Vodou is/was Papa Legba, the gatekeeper. Not female.
3. Telepathy in Vodou would require stealing a bit of the ti bon ange -- therefore equal to rape.
4. You didn't even know how to spell lwa three posts ago.
5. There is no Adam and Eve or Noah in Vodou.

azurescen · 05-03-2010, 12:01 PM

(05-03-2010 10:59 AM)Clementine Wrote: 1. Reincarnation is seen as not possible in Vodou because of the construction of the soul by Bon Dieu.
2. The originator of Vodou is/was Papa Legba, the gatekeeper. Not female.
3. Telepathy in Vodou would require stealing a bit of the ti bon ange -- therefore equal to rape.
4. You didn't even know how to spell lwa three posts ago.
5. There is no Adam and Eve or Noah in Vodou.

1 Construction of soul by...? I construct my own soul, and so does everyone. I would think of that as information, as everything else. Voodou isn't supposed to restrict. It is supposed to excel. Maybe everything that is inside of Voodou as of right now is very strait foreword, but maybe that kind of straitness NEEDS to be played with. I don't think that a religion, which is the basis of what I have found to be the resting place of magic, has any reason other than perfect straitness to keep up, when it comes to the fact that Voodou is still being practiced today. I would like to say that there has to be some great changes coming to some of this stuff soon, Voodoo is too free to be held up like this. YOU ARE AN ANGEL THOUGH FOR STAYING TRUE!!!!

2 Ok, well, maybe this was the originator of the power used in voodoo, the finder of its ways, something like that. Im not trying to say something here more than bring together some useful information about things going on in THIS time. She is actually known in the story as Ellegua. It doesn't say its a girl, but thats who she is, so maybe they couldn't remember when they said she was a child or a small boy.

3. Telepathy requiring something? No. telepathy is like walki talki radio communication, one person says something and the other person accepts to receive. Not a ritual, for say.

4. Iwa, lwa iwa LWA.... you know Im talkin to you....at least

5. YES THERE IS!!! They are a part of LIFE! Just as voodou. Just as love. Just because they don't talk about it as being a part of them, lol, doesn't mean they don't exist....does anyone look at everything?? or is the past lost to single sneak peaks?

Finally, maybe SOMEONE is a little hopped up on spiritual energy?? Voodoo may be a good religion, but expression of self is the ONLY religion....the only thing that exists....I would like to thank you about your information! But, I dunno that what we are talking about is the same at all. Voodou to me is the key to my own expression of the way I do religion. Maybe I don't do voodoo, but I do, just my own. I would be happy to be initiated into something, lol, but when it comes to me, I would just trip out whoever initiated me.