Has drinking in moderation been a success?

[MerryAtheist]

There is that.

Also, at 48 I am far too young to remember Prohibition. You, on the other hand...

[Parousia]

(02-12-2010 03:57 PM)MerryAtheist Wrote:  There is that.

Also, at 48 I am far too young to remember Prohibition. You, on the other hand...

I am only old enough to remember the sixties...or do I?

[Ahmadi]

I am glad you brought up prohibition. But did any philosopher ever say try everything only once, if you do not succeed just give up!

My son got perfect score in SAT, I came to know of it yesterday. He also has perfect score in math, biology and American history. So, I am very happy that he will make into a very good college. But I worry about college atmosphere:

Nearly half of America's 5.4 million full-time college students abuse drugs or drink alcohol on binges at least once a month, according to a new study that portrays substance and alcohol abuse as an increasingly urgent problem on campuses across the nation.
Alcohol remains the favored substance of abuse on college campuses by far, but the abuse of prescription drugs and marijuana has increased dramatically since the mid-1990s, according to the study released by the National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse (CASA) at Columbia University, in 2007:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007...-use_N.htm

[Zagreus]

Ahmadi, your view of alcohol displays the usual Islamic bias that Muslim comments on sexual conduct also does. It is an idea that you are trying to support, and a stereotype Islam tries to place on the West, but it is not one that is really true.

I will be brutally honest here: I am an alcoholic, and I'm willing to disagree with you on your views. Alcoholics do not just sit on benches shouting at people who walk past. I have a degree and am a qualified teacher; My teaching dissertation was on Islam. You are wrong about your views on alcohol, and I will also say you are wrong about drugs in general. Alcoholism is not what you imagine it to be, so your usage of statistics becomes innacurate.

The middle east and Islam portrays a negative view of these ideas, and I hope we can discuss and clear these misconceptions.

[minus459]

I would be happy if Ahmadi discussed>>Has drinking in moderation been a success?
What has alcohol and drug abuse have to do with DRINKING IN MODERATION Perhaps I'm being pedantic, but no sane man would think so, IMHO.

[Ahmadi]

When a society says let us allow drinking in moderation to the whole grown up society, ten percent or more become alcoholics, it is the nature of addiction. The society tries hard to promote moderation and can have only limited success, as history has shown. After several centuries of experience there are still DWI and binge drinking in colleges has totally exposed the failure of the idea.

I am not defining moderation at an individual level but at societal level. Even at individual level moderation is some what of a myth, but that will be some what hard to argue in a forum, where I will be the sole voice on this issue. But, let me offer you some details:

The dangers of experiencing blackouts:
Surveys have discovered that college students who had experienced alcoholic blackouts found out later on they had participated in various high-risk activities like engaging in sex without protection, driving under the influence of alcohol, or committing vandalism and other similar offenses. People who experience blackouts may at that time have an impaired ability to decide and judge and possess minimal or no control at all over their impulses.

Tips for safe drinking and preventing and managing blackouts:
The only sure-fire method for not having a blackout or memory problems is to not drink. One puzzling aspect of blackouts is that the occurrence and consequences cannot be predicted.

http://addictionrecoverybasics.com/alcoh...sequences/

The authors conducted an e-mail survey of 772 college students to learn more about their experiences with blackouts. Approximately half (51%) of those who had ever consumed alcohol reported they had experienced a blackout at some point in their lives, and 40% had experienced 1 in the year before the survey. Among those who drank in the 2 weeks before the survey, nearly 1 in 10 (9.4%) had experienced a blackout during that period.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12638993

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(02-12-2010 10:18 PM)Zagreus Wrote:  Ahmadi, your view of alcohol displays the usual Islamic bias that Muslim comments on sexual conduct also does. It is an idea that you are trying to support, and a stereotype Islam tries to place on the West, but it is not one that is really true.

I will be brutally honest here: I am an alcoholic, and I'm willing to disagree with you on your views. Alcoholics do not just sit on benches shouting at people who walk past. I have a degree and am a qualified teacher; My teaching dissertation was on Islam. You are wrong about your views on alcohol, and I will also say you are wrong about drugs in general. Alcoholism is not what you imagine it to be, so your usage of statistics becomes innacurate.

The middle east and Islam portrays a negative view of these ideas, and I hope we can discuss and clear these misconceptions.

I have appreciated many of your comments before. I also applaud your candid discussion. I am a physician and I believe I have a deep insight into all addictions (or it could be self indulgence on my part). It would be worth while discussing this here, but I hope it does not become a personal or a touchy subject for you. I do not want to lose a friend. Having said that, tell us about addiction in general and I will share my ideas.

[minus459]

Let me see, I'll conduct a survey of college students regarding alcohol blackouts and when ONLY 772 of them respond. I can be guaranteed that their responses are absolutely true.As a physician do you remember your college days, some of the people who responded may not have been exactly candid. But, regardless, someone who is such a fan of statistics surely must understand that a sample of 772 college students is hardly statistically accurate.
For the sake of argument we will accept your survey as being accurate, the contentions contained in your post are completely unbelievable to anyone who has drunk alcohol, these contentions could only be believed by a non drinker. The numbers are completely false, which in my opinion, proves that a number of the respondents were taking the piss. Regardless of the above, it has nothing to do with drinking in moderation. To equate drinking to excess with drinking in moderation is like claiming that incarceration is the same as execution.
Stop trying to make your argument concerning moderate alcohol consumption using excessive alcohol consumption as your proof.

[Zagreus]

(02-13-2010 06:38 AM)Ahmadi Wrote:  I have appreciated many of your comments before. I also applaud your candid discussion. I am a physician and I believe I have a deep insight into all addictions (or it could be self indulgence on my part). It would be worth while discussing this here, but I hope it does not become a personal or a touchy subject for you. I do not want to lose a friend. Having said that, tell us about addiction in general and I will share my ideas.

Don't worry, I don't think it's too personal, otherwise I wouldn't have posted it on the internet. Plus I don't think this forum account is too linkable to me in real life, and if someone wanted to cause me problems from things I've said on the net, well I've said a lot worse.

To be honest, Minus has said what I was thinking to an extent, but I thought I'd give my personal view form a first hand account. Harm caused by excessive drinking is not the same as moderate drinking. Not everyone who gets socially drunk is an alcoholic, and not everyone who drinks, drinks too much.

As Minus said, your view here is coming across as someone who is a non-drinker trying to hypothothise about being drunk. Plus you can't trust students, who notoriously just get drunk. Students also do stupid things when sober, like write 'Jedi' as their religion on a census. It's because they are young and immature.

There are also the silly arguments that smoking weed makes you move onto cocaine and heroine, but that's another discussion.

I think here we need specific questions to discuss, because I agree with Minus that talking about moderate drinking and using excessive drinking examples is misleading.

[Ahmadi]

(02-13-2010 02:12 PM)Zagreus Wrote:  I think here we need specific questions to discuss, because I agree with Minus that talking about moderate drinking and using excessive drinking examples is misleading.

OK. But I have only heard some claims so far. I have presented information about black outs, minus459 has raised the question as to how big was the group to start with, we can look into that. This is only one study we can review all the information that is out there about blackout prevalence.

Secondly, I have made a specific proposition, I think it is generally accepted that 10% of the population is vulnerable and becomes alcoholic. If you question that then I need to demonstrate the validity of that. My claim is that 10% people becoming alcoholics is a natural and unitended consequence of 100 people trying moderation! Is there any fallacy in my claim? If so please let me know. Otherwise my contention is that as an alcoholic is in denial of the negative consequences of his alcohl habit, so is the society in denial of the problems it is facing. The society has its own ways of denial and rationalization, the term 'moderation' being one of them.

Please respond to the two specific issues I have raised. Thanks

[Zagreus]

(02-13-2010 05:22 PM)Ahmadi Wrote:  OK. But I have only heard some claims so far. I have presented information about black outs, minus459 has raised the question as to how big was the group to start with, we can look into that. This is only one study we can review all the information that is out there about blackout prevalence.

Yes, but the issue Minus and I are raising is that black outs are not related to moderate drinking. You have to get pretty drunk to lose memory, and a moderate drinker who perhaps has a couple of glasses of wine in an evening a few times a week will have no problems.

There's even a debate that a small amount of red wine, for example, is good for you.
Here is a recent article on it that shows scientists are divided over this, and I'll quote a positive section:

Quote:"Our research identified a group of chemicals called procyanadins which are polyphenols, and the key component in terms of protecting from heart disease."

Polyphenols, such as the antioxidant resveratrol, are found in the skins of red wine grapes.

The point is that you are referring to the effects of excessive drinking and implying that all alcohol consumption is like that, which is just not the case. A glass of wine a day is not the same as ten pints of beer per day. You cannot use the phrase 'moderate' and then use examples related to black outs, as they are not the same.

A side question could be that if you have never been drunk, then can you necessarily talk from a perspective of proper understanding? I could argue that it's like a person who is blind from birth learning about what the colour red is, but never having seen it. I am not disputing your academic understanding of addiction here, but the fact you have even mentioned black outs in relation to moderate drinking concerns me.

(02-13-2010 05:22 PM)Ahmadi Wrote:  Secondly, I have made a specific proposition, I think it is generally accepted that 10% of the population is vulnerable and becomes alcoholic.

Can I have a source for that please? A google search for me came up with this from 2004 here:

Quote:During the same period, the share of the population who were judged to be alcoholics slipped from 4.38 percent to 3.81 percent of people aged 18 and over, the institute said.

So that looks like only 5% max are alcoholic, and that leaves 95% fine. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I like to know the stats. Also, stats from alcoholic anonymous or some such are probably going to be a bit weighted, but we shall see.

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(02-13-2010 05:22 PM)Ahmadi Wrote:  If you question that then I need to demonstrate the validity of that. My claim is that 10% people becoming alcoholics is a natural and unintended consequence of 100 people trying moderation! Is there any fallacy in my claim? If so please let me know.

Couple of quick things we can come to later. One being that there are some ideas that alcoholism for some people is genetic, so your stat could relate to that gene. Should you ban something because a few people have a genetic problem?

The other fact is just simply that people like to get f**ked up. It's fun! Now, moving away from me being light hearted, there is just the idea that we, as a species, have a long history with drugs, and humans inherently do these things simply because they feel nice. There are ideas within archaeology that it was the production of alcohol which meant our ancestors settled in one place. Crops can be planted and returned to, but fermenting needs to be attended. (I am not meaning organised agriculture can just be left, I’m referring to our very early ancestors, slightly past homo erectus)

That 100% of people who are trying moderation, if you took away alcohol, would just take something else. It’s people that are the issue, not the drug. Look at the popularity of new legal highs, such as ‘meow’ that is now popular in the UK. Police clamp down on cocaine, mdma, etc, so people turn to an easier to get version. Also, in my experience, stoners don’t tend to be drinkers, and vice versa.

My claim is that whilst 10% of the drinkers who are from that 100% may end up alcoholics, that is not to say necessarily that alcohol as a drug is the evil here.

(02-13-2010 05:22 PM)Ahmadi Wrote:  Otherwise my contention is that as an alcoholic is in denial of the negative consequences of his alcohl habit, so is the society in denial of the problems it is facing. The society has its own ways of denial and rationalization, the term 'moderation' being one of them.

This is when I really start to disagree. I said I am an alcoholic to demonstrate to you that alcoholics are not necessarily in denial. My friends who smoke are aware of the health risks, my friends who drink too much are aware of the health risks. My point is that alcoholism is not necessarily as negative as you make it sound. Many alcoholics can lead normal lives, and if you base your ideas on the information from groups like the AA then it’s biased. People who are going through rehab of some sort are surely going to be having problems, and to base your views on the idea that alcoholics necessarily ruin their lives is not true. For every ten that can’t hold down a job and beat their wives, there could be 100 that the AA are not aware of as they are not seeking help and are not being statistically recorded.

I would even say that you are using moderation out of context here, as by definition it has nothing to do with addiction.