Surah 29:27 (explanation required)

[Phill]

29:27 And We gave (Abraham) Isaac and Jacob, and ordained among his progeny Prophethood and Revelation, and We granted him his reward in this life; and he was in the Hereafter (of the company) of the Righteous.

This verse surprises me a bit and I need an explanation if possible. If one takes this verse at face value it says to me:

Isaac is the son of Abraham and that the prohethood and revelation was ordained through him and his decendants only. Why didn't Mohammad or Allah include Ishmael as well in this verse since Muslims claim he is also a prophet/messenger.

But this verse clealry states that the prophethood was established with Isaac and his line ???. Some koranic sources remove the word "ordained" and replace it with the word "established", This to me inferes that the beginning of prophethood/revelators started with Isaac and that there were no others before him and continued through his seed. This would exlude Ismael for starters and any before him.

This verse also backs up the Torah and Bible in that Isaac was the sacraficial son with whom God was to establish his covenant with by establishing the prphethood through his seed.

[Ahmadi]

The Holy Quran says:

"Indeed, We have sent thee (Muhammad) with the truth, as a bearer of glad tidings and as a Warner; and there is no people on earth in any age who did not receive a Warner from God." (Al Quran, 35:25)

In the Holy Quran you have to take the cumulative picture, by looking at all the verses in different chapters pertaining to the subject. I just searched 'Ishmael,' in electronic translation and it appears in 12 different places in the Holy Quran. One of which is:

"Were you present when death came to Jacob, when he said to his sons, ‘What will you worship after me?’ They answered, ‘We will worship thy God, the God of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, the One God; and to Him we submit ourselves.’" (Al Quran 2:134)

In other words the early Israelites, that is the generation of Joseph took Ishmael to be a part of their heritage.

All 12 references in favor of Ishamael are very powerful. Here is a link for anyone to do search:

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/index.php

Here is a detailed Google knol arguing the case 'Ishmael and not Isaac!' from the Islamic perspective:

http://knol.google.com/k/zia-shah/ishmae...umbuyp/12#

There is indirect reference in the Holy Quran that the sacraficial son was Ishmael. He was 13-14 year older than Isaac.

This knol also attempts at making the case for Ishmael being the sacraficial son from the Bible as well, if you closely and critically follow the reasoning.

[Phill]

Hmm, that doesnt really really explain it Ahmadi. Even early muslim commentors agreed it was Isaac. I suppose it's a bit like placing Mohammad in the OT. If it was Ishmael then they would have been given Israel and not Isaacs seed and the Prophethood would have been through Ishmael's seed !!

The link appears to show that Pharaoh gave Hagar to Abraham specifically to have a son. This is wrong because Hagar was never Abrahams wife and it clearly shows that Hagar was Sarah's maid servent way before Sarah offered her to Abraham to have a son !!. I cam also see that Islam is trying to show that Hagar was actually a daughter of a Pharaoh which would give her and Ishmael a royal seed down through the ages. In my view this is absurd.

When you say there is 12 powerfull references that Ishmael was the sacraficial son, but then you say there is an indirect reference in the Koran

Back to the thread. So what your saying is that 35:25 says he (Mohammad) was sent as a warner ?. This sort of actually fits with 29:27 as the Prohethood was established with Isaac and Jacob and their seed. I suppose if Mohammad was a Prophet he would have been included in this statement of 29:27 no doubt.

[Ahmadi]

The twelve verses that I mentioned about Ishmael are expressing different qualities of Ishmael. There is one verse from which it can be inferred that Ishmael was the sacrificial son, and that is the general Islamic view.

The Bible does say that Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham as a wife. Ishmael is called as Abraham's son in the Bible, more than once. The Bible says that Ishmael is older son and it also says that the only son was to be sacrificed, more than once, Isaac was never the only son, as he was 13-14 years younger.

You wrote, "Even early muslim commentors agreed it was Isaac." This cannot be coming from any of the respected commentators. This has been a raging debate between Muslims and Christians over the centuries, I cannot imagine how a Muslim commentator can make such a case. I would like to see the names and references, as this is almost like saying that some Muslim commentators believe in trinity or original sin.

[biomystic]

Reality:

Abraham, father of the Hebrews and Muslims = Brahma, Vedic god of creation
Sarai, Sarah= Sarasvati, alt. spelling-Saraisvati, named after the Sarasvati River and goddess of wisdom in the Vedic stories
Hagar, handmaiden to Sarah= Ghaggar-Hakra, main tributary river to the Sarasvati in a land where goddesses were named after rivers.
Melchizedek, the mysterious king of Salem= Malik-Sadaksina, a prince with magical powers in the Vedic stories. "Malik" is a Hebrew alt. spelling of "Melech" meaning king.

I'm sorry but these really are the End Times of Abraham. Abrahamic religionists have built their houses on the sands of ancient mythologies and God's whirlwind is blowing that sand away leaving the houses ready to topple over at any time. God has given Christianity an escape route from this fate through Gnosis and Biomystical Christian doctrines. Abrahamic refugees set adrift are welcome aboard because God will not leave believers bereft of spiritual guidance.

[muslim girl]

There is averse Allah said that Abraham said in it
"Praise be to God, who hath granted unto me in old age Ismail and Isaac: for truly my Lord is he, the hearer of prayer"(14:39)
however the verse you mention does not mean that Ismail does not have Prophet Hood

[Phill]

(02-26-2010 03:59 PM)muslim girl Wrote:  There is averse Allah said that Abraham said in it
"Praise be to God, who hath granted unto me in old age Ismail and Isaac: for truly my Lord is he, the hearer of prayer"(14:39)
however the verse you mention does not mean that Ismail does not have Prophet Hood

The verse means that the Prophethood was established with Isaac and Jacob and their seed through Abraham. The verse isn't ambiguous at all and doesnt have some other meaning that would include Ishmael.

It pretty clealry states that Ishmael isnt and wont be a Prophet and neither will any of his seed be a Prophet. Makes perfect sense to me!. Or Maybe it's another Quranic contradiction !!

[kevlar]

(02-27-2010 03:42 PM)Phill Wrote:  

(02-26-2010 03:59 PM)muslim girl Wrote:  There is averse Allah said that Abraham said in it
"Praise be to God, who hath granted unto me in old age Ismail and Isaac: for truly my Lord is he, the hearer of prayer"(14:39)
however the verse you mention does not mean that Ismail does not have Prophet Hood

The verse means that the Prophethood was established with Isaac and Jacob and their seed through Abraham. The verse isn't ambiguous at all and doesnt have some other meaning that would include Ishmael.

It pretty clealry states that Ishmael isnt and wont be a Prophet and neither will any of his seed be a Prophet. Makes perfect sense to me!.

How you get that interpretation is well and truly beyond me!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Phill]

My interpretation or Muslims Girls one ???. If mine, then it's pretty easy. Ishamel isn't included in the verse for who the Prophets and revelators are, and will be.

[Ahmadi]

As I said before, pull all the verses in the Holy Quran on a certain subject and read them together. For example what you do with the Bible. Bart Ehrman calls it a devotional reading or vertical reading as opposed to horizontal reading when you are trying to pick up any contradiction.

The Holy Quran is more deserving of devotional reading than the Holy Bible, as the latter contains different books by different authors. Here is an article about the compilation of the Holy Quran:

http://www.muslimsunrise.com/dmddocument...df#page=36