The most direct verse of the Quran about apostacy

[Stereophonic]

(03-06-2010 11:47 AM)Ahmadi Wrote:  ...I am giving the proper presentation of the Holy Quran and use it to teach the ignorant Muslims and bring mankind closer together for a happy ending...

Okay, Ahmadi, you alone are right, and the other 1.2 billion Muslims in the world today (not to mention the countless millions who have come and gone before you) are all very badly misunderstanding the Qur'an.

Firstly, what does this say about the supposed "clarity" of the Qur'an if such a large majority cannot even figure out whether or not to kill apostates? And secondly, why are you preaching to us? No one here is advocating death to apostates. Why not go to some Islamic country where people are actually being executed for their beliefs? Why not try to help those governments figure out who to kill and who to let live?

[Ahmadi]

(03-06-2010 02:26 PM)Stereophonic Wrote:  ... Firstly, what does this say about the supposed "clarity" of the Qur'an if such a large majority cannot even figure out whether or not to kill apostates? ...

The basic details in the Quran are for every one to easily grasp and deep new insights are for the righteous and insightful. Mostly, the ignorant Muslims also generally do not try to implement the punishment of apostacy, except when it is politically convenient.

When nations get misled on a certain issue it takes a lot to bring them back to reasonability. For centuries the Church and seminary graduates have taught the masses about literal truth of the Holy Bible, until it was not possible to do that anymore. In a similar vein, in my opinion the innovations that Paul introduced, have not been taken out after twenty centuries. So, in this regard both Muslims and Christians are in the same boat.

Let us just talk about in this thread what are the peaceful teachings of the Quran and if you want to compare them with those of the Bible. Otherwise, in this thread I am at your service to explain apostacy issue from the Holy Quran. Any one has any questions, feel free to ask, but limit yourself to the Holy Quran, please.

[biomystic]

(03-06-2010 11:47 AM)Ahmadi Wrote:  

(03-06-2010 09:11 AM)Aijan7d Wrote:  According to Sharia Laws extracted from the Quran and Hadith, apostates of Islam must be sentenced to death. And that's that. ...
2. Qur'an 4:89. Scholars have found justification for the penalty within the Quran's pages. There are many other verses that support the many Hadith demanding death for apostates are Qur'an verses
... you see if there is ''no compulsion in religion'' why should apostates be sentenced to death. Huge contradictions.

The contradiction is not in the Holy Quran but in the behavior of those who do not properly understand the Holy Quran and have a militant bias. The Christians could either reject my opinion and stick with the opinion of the militant ones, and use their twisted rationalizations to deny my position, and advance further in Islam phobia.

Or, they could consider the possibility that I am giving the proper presentation of the Holy Quran and use it to teach the ignorant Muslims and bring mankind closer together for a happy ending. Which is a more prudent approach?

The verse that Arjan7d brings in favor of killing the apostate is in fact about warring enemies. The verse is soon followed by this verse:

"Except those who are connected with a people between whom and you there is a pact, or those who come to you, while their hearts shrink from fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had so pleased, He would have given them power over you, then they would have surely fought you. Except those who are connected with a people between whom and you there is a pact, or those who come to you, while their hearts shrink from fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had so pleased, He would have given them power over you, then they would have surely fought you. So, if they keep aloof from you and fight you not, and make you an offer of peace, then remember that Allah has allowed you no way of aggression against them.
" (Al Quran 4:91)

What greater peace making strategy could be out there, as soon as the enemy leans towards peace the Muslims are supposed to reciprocate. Please re-read the words, "So, if they keep aloof from you and fight you not, and make you an offer of peace, then remember that Allah has allowed you no way of aggression against them." There is no killing of the apostates, there is not even wanton killing of enemies in wars! Every one is to be given proper quarter and rights even in a war situation. Please consider bringing out a similar verse from the Holy Bible? Failing which please begin to treat the Holy Quran with some deference.

Additionally, note that the part of the verse, 'while their hearts shrink from fighting you or fighting their own people,' is introducing further flexibility in human affairs. It is not putting the ambivalent enemies squarely in the enemy camp, but recognizing their mitigating circumstances. This is unlike the hardline, 'Every nation in every region now has a decision to make: Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists.'

If anyone thinks other Quranic verses are better for their case, regarding apostates, then allow me to explain those. Thanks

Apologetics for misinterpreting the Quran by Muslims is not to the point. The point is the Quran seems to be very easily used as rationale by Muslims for killing apostates, both in the past and in the present. If the tree is rotten, the fruits will be too. And "By their fruits ye shall know them".

How long must those of us who desire peace and goodwill between nations have to put up with Abrahamic satanic verses leading so many into doing ungodly acts against their neighbors?

[Ahmadi]

The allegation that Islam can be misrepresented by the militants is arising out of Islam phobia only. Let us blame something on Islam! Every human activity can be distorted. That is why many news channels instead of giving you the news give you mainly commentary.

There is a hated saying, yet it is true:

"If you tell a lie long enough loud enough and often enough the people will believe it." Most of the propaganda by all comers is based on this principle.

So, this is a human vulnerability, should not be pinned on Islam or the Holy Quran.

[biomystic]

(03-07-2010 11:11 AM)Ahmadi Wrote:  The allegation that Islam can be misrepresented by the militants is arising out of Islam phobia only. Let us blame something on Islam! Every human activity can be distorted. That is why many news channels instead of giving you the news give you mainly commentary.

There is a hated saying, yet it is true:

"If you tell a lie long enough loud enough and often enough the people will believe it." Most of the propaganda by all comers is based on this principle.

So, this is a human vulnerability, should not be pinned on Islam or the Holy Quran.

Ahmadi, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. The Quran has many weak links which are the satanic verses within it which historically and currently lead Muslims into acts of violence against their neighbors. We see this on the news because it is newsworthy. You may council turning off the nightly news but that doesn't make it go away. It only shows your willingness to stick your head in the sand and pretend Muslim violence doesn't exist or if it does it doesn't count--just bad Muslims not reading their Qurans right.

I hold organized religions responsible for the acts of their adherents. I hold the texts that are used in organized religions responsible for the acts of adherents. The Quran is just too easily interpreted by Muslims as a war manual by fundamentalist Muslims. History shows this. Current events show this. Even the persecution of your own Ahmadiyyah sect shows this. Putting a rosy facade over this reality does nothing to change it.

God is on the side of democracy where God is protecting human rights far better than when human rights were in the hands of religionists.

[kevlar]

There are definetely cases of Islamic terrorism but there are also cases of fighting against invading armies. Western news certainly doesn't differentiate. I don't know how to differentiate either, but there is a difference.

[biomystic]

(03-08-2010 09:15 AM)kevlar Wrote:  There are definetely cases of Islamic terrorism but there are also cases of fighting against invading armies. Western news certainly doesn't differentiate. I don't know how to differentiate either, but there is a difference.

When Muslims are blowing up Muslims in their own countries there is no case for excusing those acts as defense against invading armies. Muslims turning violently against Muslims is not a new thing as you well know.

[Ahmadi]

In the 21st century residents of a European country, namely the Swiss voters have backed a ban on building any more mosques with minarets in their country. The Holy Quran, revealed in the desert of Arabia in the seventh century stated that the purpose of defensive warfare is to preserve the sanctity of cloisters, churches, synagogues and mosques. The Quran named the place of worship of the Muslims as the last on this sacred list. (Al Quran 22:42) Is the Quran a miracle or not?

[Phill]

(03-09-2010 04:23 PM)Ahmadi Wrote:  In the 21st century residents of a European country, namely the Swiss voters have backed a ban on building any more mosques with minarets in their country. The Holy Quran, revealed in the desert of Arabia in the seventh century stated that the purpose of defensive warfare is to preserve the sanctity of cloisters, churches, synagogues and mosques. The Quran named the place of worship of the Muslims as the last on this sacred list. (Al Quran 22:42) Is the Quran a miracle or not?

Naming Mosques as the last on list doesnt mean a thing Ahamdi. Your making it sound like the Koran places churches and synagogues as a higher priority than Mosques. Maybe that is true, but then that would mean it could also place Judaism and Christianity ahead of Islam ???... the same thought process can be made from the verse. It was good business sense for Mohammad to keep these places of worship because then he could enforce the Dhimmi tax on the Jews and Christians for protection money. It was a lucrative business and probably still is in some places. If they didnt pay it, the places of worship were destroyed and worshippers killed.

[Ahmadi]

Dhimmi tax was a Federal Tax for defending the minorties. It was not a Property tax, if you allow me to use the modern terminology. Please do not mix every thing!

The mention of Churches and Synagogues means that it was the first time in religious history that one religion was fully recognizing the other religions and creating a full fledged paradigm of religious freedom.