Last time I checked...

[may]

is it true that a cult has to have a living leader?

[Parousia]

(02-08-2010 07:28 PM)may Wrote:  is it true that a cult has to have a living leader?

Scientology pretended L. Ron Hubbard was still alive for quite some time after his death.

[JohnnyNJ]

Wow. I came across this site and have been perusing it for a few days - lurking, I suppose - but saw this thread just now and felt I had to say something. I'm actually rather surprised that while many Christians seem to be aware that Mormonism is a cult and not Christian, nobody has really articulated it very clearly.

Seems there are two main points that have been discussed, which are:
1. Why is or isn't it accurate to call Mormons "Christians", and
2. Why is or isn't it accurate to call Mormonism a "cult".

I realize it's an old thread and most people involved don't seem to even post anymore, but for those who come across this thread, I'll address these two points to hopefully help them avoid any confusion.

First - are Mormons "Christian"? No. Absolutely not. Many have argued that Mormons are Christians because they believe in Jesus Christ and share certain beliefs with Christians. However, "Christian" has been defined for 100's of years as belief in and worship of Jesus Christ as the One True God. Orthodox (i.e. Traditional) Christian Churches, including the majority of Protestant denominations, adhere to certain Christian "essentials" which identify the denomination or church as a truly "Christian" one. The essentials are actually not many but they are critical. Christian essentials are found in the Apostle's creed and the Nicene creed, and other creeds (but most of the essentials are covered by the Apostle's and Nicene and are merely repeated or further explained in later creeds). Christians do not need to accept the creeds as scripture, but they do need to agree with the concepts the creeds sum up, which are based in scripture.

Of these essentials, the Mormons do not adhere to at least a couple of critical ones which go hand in hand with each other. Mormons do not believe in:
- One God
- The Trinity

Mormonism is not monotheistic, but Christianity is. Mormonism is a form of polytheism called "henotheism", which means that they believe in the existence of many true gods, but believe that they are only directly subject to one or a few of those gods. Mormons believe that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are two separate gods. They will, if asked, tell you they believe in "one God", but they intentionally leave off the truth of their belief, which is that they believe God is "One in purpose", meaning that Jesus and Heavenly Father are two separate gods but "one in purpose" so that they can say it's "one God." On top of that, they believe that there are other gods for other peoples in the universe. All of this goes directly against the Christian essential doctrine that Yahweh is the One True God, and there has never been another true God and never will be another true God besides Him.

This leads into the Triune nature of God, which Mormons also reject. Mormons believe God and Jesus are separate gods, although "one in purpose". They also believe the Holy Spirit is NOT "God" or a god. Their view of God is radically different from ALL traditiona, orthodox Christian denominations from Baptist to Orthodox to Pentecostal to Catholic. With such a radical difference in basics, it doesn't matter how many other ways they are similar to other Christian denominations; the core of their beliefs makes them non-Christian.

To illustrate, take, for example, the term "baseball". What things are essential for a game to be correctly called "baseball"??? At the very least - one bat and batter, one ball that is hard and about palm size, and three bases plus a home plate arranged in a diamond. After that, you can probably make some radical changes and still call the game "baseball". A tee-ball league for 5-year-old kids has no pitcher, might have fewer or more kids taking the field than the traditional 9 players, and may have the bases closer together - but it's still baseball. On the other hand, if the L.A. Dodgers, a pro baseball team, one day decided that what they call a "baseball" is NOT a palm-sized ball but a huge, black disc, like a 4-foot hockey puck, and they used this version of a "baseball", would they still be a TRUE baseball team??? I'm pretty sure that the major league as well as every othe baseball fan would say "No, they are not playing baseball, what they call a "baseball" is not a REAL baseball and they therefore are not a real baseball team."

Now that I've explained how Mormonism isn't Christian, I'll continue in a second post about Mormonism being a cult...

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As for Mormonism being a "cult".... The dictionary definition of "cult" is such that any religious group, including churches like Catholics and Baptists, are tecnically defined as "cults". Of course, the dictionary also says that "gay" means "happy". And in both cases, the dictionary is correct. But what's at play here is connotation, not denotation (the strict dictionay definition).

The connotation of a "cult" is one of a religious or other group that is characterized by certain control and manipulation tactics. Christian Churches which are not cults do not utilize certain practices which cults use. The Mormon religion is not a unified religion - there are many, independent sects of Mormonism. But the biggest sect, and the most mainstream (and least cult-like) is the Salt Lake City based "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints".

Even looking at the biggest, mainstream sect, however, we see cult practices at work. Some of the cultic practices they have are: a leader who is a prophet, seer, and revelator with the power to speak on God's behalf; additional scriptures (which are in fact held to be "more perfect" than the Bible); giving members many activities within the religious organization to keep them insulated from external influence; constant admonition, warnings, even threats against listening to anyone who is not an authority in the religious organization; the practice of "shunning" those who "apostatize" from the religious organization and general mistreatment of apostates, even in social settings; closing off certain buildings and rituals to outsiders even being allowed to enter or attend (e.g., a mormon marrying in the "mormon temple" is not allowed to even have his or her parents attend if they are not special, "temple mormons"). I'm sure there are a few I'm missing, but all these things are practiced by the mainstream Mormon Church as well as their many sects, while they are not practiced (at least not officially or correctly) by denominations in traditional/orthodox Christianity.

Mormonism is not just a cult by denotation, but also by connotation. It may not be the creepiest cult out there, and it certainly is appealing and inoffensive on its surface, but it is a cult - a manipulating, controlling cult - nonetheless.

So, for example... Take Bob and Joe. Bob is heterosexual, Joe is homosexual. Both are happy guys. You can call Bob "gay" and be technically correct; however, we all know that Bob would, in this day and age, take being told he was "gay" to mean he was "homosexual", and he is not. But Joe, who is homosexual, can take being called "gay" either way and it applies - denotation OR connotation.

Likewise, if you tell a Presbyterian that his church is a "cult", even though it's technically correct, he will take it to mean a controlling, manipulative, dangerous and abusive cult. However, in the case of the Mormon Church(es), the religion IS indeed a cult - denotation OR connotation, "cult" applies to Mormonism.

I hope that helps some to understand it better. Be careful about Mormonism - they present themselves as "Christians" and tell you a lot of lies in the form of half-truths to convince you they hold actual, orthodox Christian beliefs. Once they gain your confidence, and you let your guard down, they slowly start to introduce the rest of their bizarre, anti-Christian beliefs. That is the essence of a "con" job - "con" comes from "confidance", a "con artist" gains your "confidence" to get your guard down so he can abuse and harm you.

[Stereophonic]

You may be interested in the book, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins.

Also, recently there have been high-level talks between Mormon leadership and evangelical Protestant leaders about the feasibility of Mormons abandoning some of their claims and moving closer to mainstream Christianity. I heard about this a few years ago; I'm not sure where things stand today.

[JohnnyNJ]

(02-20-2010 09:23 AM)Stereophonic Wrote:  You may be interested in the book, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins.

Also, recently there have been high-level talks between Mormon leadership and evangelical Protestant leaders about the feasibility of Mormons abandoning some of their claims and moving closer to mainstream Christianity. I heard about this a few years ago; I'm not sure where things stand today.

Thanks, Stereo, I'll see about taking a look at that book, sounds interesting.

Interesting also that Mormons would consider abandoning some of their beliefs that separate them from Christianity; if they do so, it means going against their prophets' teachings.

Of course, they've done this in the past when it was politically expedient, and their members are so gullible that they would believe what they are told, because they are brainwashed into believing without questioning what their church authorities tell them.

A good example is how they reversed their belief in Polygamy. Their prophets had declared that all mormons ought to engage in polygamy and that it would not change. Of course, when Utah sought statehood, the USA told them "NO" because they were polygamists. Lo and behold, right away, their "prophet" got a "revelation" that polygamy was to no longer be practiced and that it was now wrong. And, of course, the people in the cult have believed that to this very day. Doesn't matter that Brigham Young taught it as an "eternal" truth. They do whatever's convenient.

[Mr Cheese]

My personal gripe with mormonism is the whole issue of God living in outer space, near the planet Kolob....

[christianlouboutin]

It is hard to decide.We do not have any standards!

[OldManRiver]

Please note my observations:

Although Mormons think they are Christian, they are not considered to be Christian by most people outside their church. Mormons have a whole other set of holy books, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and I think others. You write as though all other "Christian" religions are absolutely unified and standard in these items.... WHICH version of the Bible is the standard for "true Christians"? Which Non-biblical creeds are essential to "true Christianity"? Which Mass is holy? Where are the words to the marriage ceremony in the Bible? They also have a whole bunch of other beliefs that are not part of Christianity, like baptizing dead people, baptizing ancestors. Like transubstination, gifts of the Spirit, worship of saints worship of Mary, predestination, inescapable grace, Calvinism, Lutheranism, etc. My point being, that again, this charge could be brought against any of the self-proclaimed "Christian" faiths. They have as thier chief prophet a man named Joseph Smith who they think was told to write these new books by God. I have never seen Smith referred to in any book or publication as "chief prophet"... where did this info come from, and what does it mean? He's a bit like a 19th century Moses figure. He was also into having multiple wives, which maybe completes the parallel. Would it be a good thing or a bad thing to parallel Moses and Abraham?

They also have a belief that humans can become gods, and that God was originally just a man (Jesus has a different history for them). They don't see the trinity as a unity, but as seperate beings. (As do the scriptures, and the Savior himself... "If I bear witness of myself.... (See John 5) They have some different ideas about evil and the devil also: that Jesus' spiritual brother was Lucifer So, I would not tend to see this group as Christian. I would tend to see them as having a connection to Christianity, much as some "new thought" and meditative groups might have.

[color=#FF0000]It seems to me that this term "Christian" is extremely subjective, and that the term "cult" is used to call names in the cloak of decency.[/color]
[/quote]

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I wonder if the Catholics feel the same about your religion as an upstart usurper!!!

(03-30-2009 09:19 AM)Pilgrim Wrote:  

(03-30-2009 09:16 AM)GTseng3 Wrote:  Who does the accepting? Which denominations get to hold the power? Honestly, I'm amazed at how strong your sense of entitlement is. You think just because you happen to belong to a particular sect of Christianity that your sect should have more strength and influence.

Nope, I belong to what is universally acknowledged to be the Body of Christ & it has the right to define itself as over against those that use the name Christian but refute it tenets. That apart GT you don't even believe God exists so what are you trying to muddy the waters for. Here's a term you are obviously not familiar with but applies in this case....IDENTITY THEFT.

[CarolineBelle]

(11-24-2008 04:59 PM)Alison Wrote:  you might as well classify all religions cults ...

Yah. Pretty much.

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(02-23-2010 04:43 PM)Mr Cheese Wrote:  My personal gripe with mormonism is the whole issue of God living in outer space, near the planet Kolob....

Wait...DO they really think that.